On Nov 20, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Krisztina Csiki wrote:

>
> The reason I am getting this magazine sent to me from abroad is page 90, I
think. Dark hair, dark eyes, the voice the of the century.


This guy is the voice of my century:

http://www.juandiegoflorez.com/

He should definitely be in a sexiest man issue too. ;)  I'm going back to NYC in
February to see him at the Met. :)

  -- Paula

On Nov 19, 2009, at 10:21 PM, Lesley Tillier wrote:

>
> However, if there is a great picture of Simon I might have to break my rule
and buy a copy of People after all. :-)

We wouldn't want you to break your rule.   :)

I've scanned in the photo and you can find it in our group files in the
"Magazines and Newspapers" folder.  The title is PeopleNov.30,2009gb.jpg. :) 
I'm sending it to Nikki too so she can put it up on the SBLand blog.

However, if you are in the mood to break your rule, there are lots of other
photos of rather nice men, including a bunch of Hugh Jackman photos on the
reverse side of the Simon photo page, illustrating "Hugh Jackman's Sexy Year." 
LOL  There are worse ways to spend a few minutes than paging through this issue.
:)

Have I mentioned I'm going to see Hugh Jackman and Daniel Craig in A Steady Rain
in New York next week? *grin*  I probably have mentioned it. :)

>
> Do send Ha Jin an email, I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it.

I probably will. ;)   I scanned in the book review.  You can see it at: 
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7573/hajinpeoplemagnov302009.jpg

>
> I must check out his writing. I'm always looking for new authors to read.

Ha Jin is definitely worth your time.  He was studying for his Ph.D. when the
Tiannanman Square massacre took place, and he realized he would not be able to
return home.  Fortunately, he was able to bring his wife and son to the U.S. and
he made the agonizing decision to write in English in order to have an audience
in this country.  Our faculty picked him out of an applicant pool of over 200 to
be our new poetry professor (he had published two books of poetry).  He
immediately proceeded to start publishing fiction, first short stories, then
novels, and started getting a lot of attention for his work.  I remember when he
won the National Book Award for Waiting.  It was a VERY big deal. :)  At first
he just wrote stories and novels about life in China but then he finally started
grappling with the Chinese immigrant experience here in the U.S., which is the
subject of his new story collection too.  A couple of years after winning the
National Book Award he left us *sob* for Boston University but we remember him
most fondly.  He came back last year to give a reading here and it was wonderful
to see him again. :)  We're all getting old though.  I can't believe how gray
his hair has gotten.  (Mine too.) :)

Apologies for this off-topic discussion, but it's not every day an author I
actually know a little is in the same issue of People magazine with Simon and
Hugh.  I hope my favorite actors took time out to read the book review page. ;)

  -- Paula

On Nov 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, tiacelaya wrote:

>
> Paula
>
> Is the picture a new one, or one previously used before?
>
>

It's not familiar to me so I'm guessing new but I could be wrong.

I dunno why People doesn't just give in and admit Simon should be their cover
boy... I get the feeling they would have liked to, since he's the first face you
see in that Leading Man section. ;)

I'm still waiting for him to get a GQ or Details or Esquire cover.

Though I think the true marker of success will be when Mad Magazine does a
Mentalist parody. ;)

  -- Paula

Paula

Is the picture a new one, or one previously used before?

Tia

--- In simonbaker@yahoogroups.com, Paula Vitaris <pvitaris@...> wrote:
>
> Well, Simon wasn't chosen for Sexiest Man of the Year (the choice is Johnny Depp, an actor whose talents I admire endlessly but he has too much facial hair and too many tattoos for me to find him sexy), but if you open to page 90, there's a gorgeous full page of pic of Simon giving out with a big smile. :) He gets top billing as "Leading Man."
>
> The page has a quote from Robin Tunney:
>
> "I won't mention Simon's hair because frankly I'm sick of speaking and hearing about that man's hair. Hair does not make a man sexy. I will say that Simon has a fantastic smile, and the reason that it melts the hearts of so many is because it's genuine. Simon likes to have a laugh; his grin is effortless, and as a result infectious."
>
> The eyes definitely look blue. :)
>
> However, the most interesting man (well, besides Simon) in this issue is not an actor but author Ha Jin, whose latest book of short stories, "A Good Fall," is reviewed on page 57.
>
> I worked with Ha Jin for several years and he not only is a great author, but a true gentleman and extremely nice person.
>
> I'm really amused he's featured in the Sexiest Man issue (although in the review section not in the piece about the sexiest men). I'm half tempted to send him an e-mail about it. :)
>
> -- Paula
>

Well, Simon wasn't chosen for Sexiest Man of the Year (the choice is Johnny
Depp, an actor whose talents I admire endlessly but he has too much facial hair
and too many tattoos for me to find him sexy), but if you open to page 90,
there's a gorgeous full page of pic of Simon giving out with a big smile. :)  He
gets top billing as "Leading Man."

The page has a quote from Robin Tunney:

"I won't mention Simon's hair because frankly I'm sick of speaking and hearing
about that man's hair.  Hair does not make a man sexy. I will say that Simon has
a fantastic smile, and the reason that it melts the hearts of so many is because
it's genuine. Simon likes to have a laugh; his grin is effortless, and as a
result infectious."

The eyes definitely look blue. :)

However, the most interesting man (well, besides Simon) in this issue is not an
actor but author Ha Jin, whose latest book of short stories, "A Good Fall," is
reviewed on page 57.

I worked with Ha Jin for several years and he not only is a great author, but a
true gentleman and extremely nice person.

I'm really amused he's featured in the Sexiest Man issue (although in the review
section not in the piece about the sexiest men).  I'm half tempted to send him
an e-mail about it. :)

  -- Paula

 

I think I just sent a message to this group with no reply in it...
apologies.

Anyway, re this sentence:

"Many weeks, you might think Simon Baker coasts on his star charisma
to make this show a winner."

Stuff like this makes me want to rip out my fingernails -- or the
writer's.

As if Simon would EVER coast when it comes to acting...!

When are the critics going to realize that Patrick Jane's demeanor --
his smiles, his body language, his charismatic aura, and yes, the
smugness -- is carefully planned, with laser-like precision, by Simon
Baker? That Simon is giving a *performance*? Yes, Simon himself is
immensely charismatic, but if you watch him in real life, he never
wields that charisma at all in the same way that Jane does. I do love
episodes when the story affects Patrick to the point that he can no
longer maintain the smile and we finally see the pain always lurking
underneath, because Simon does that so well too, but I believe he is
giving as much thought to "happy" Jane as he is to distressed Jane.

I'm 3/4 through the Guardian set (and plan to write a little something
about it once I'm done, which should be in a day or two) and watching
Simon as Nick is really kind of breathtaking because his body language
is so utterly different from Patrick's. The two characters do have a
number of things in common (including charisma -- people keep
gravitating to Nick no matter how much he annoys them) but their
physicality is completely opposite from one another. And in each case
it seems completely natural and just how that character should be.

I would say the same for Jeff in Smith, who is yet another animal
entirely and again, his physicality is nothing like either Nick or
Patrick. And yet he absolutely is who he is -- there is nothing
forced about Simon as Jeff either.

Good grief. Matt Roush, take off your blinders.

But, Matt, I'm glad you liked the episode. I'm really looking forward
to 10 p.m. tonight. :)

-- Paula

I think I just sent a message to this group with no reply in it...
apologies.

Anyway, re this sentence:

"Many weeks, you might think Simon Baker coasts on his star charisma
to make this show a winner."

Stuff like this makes me want to rip out my fingernails -- or the
writer's.

As if Simon would EVER coast when it comes to acting...!

When are the critics going to realize that Patrick Jane's demeanor --
his smiles, his body language, his charismatic aura, and yes, the
smugness -- is carefully planned, with laser-like precision, by Simon
Baker?  That Simon is giving a *performance*?  Yes, Simon himself is
immensely charismatic, but if you watch him in real life, he never
wields that charisma at all in the same way that Jane does.  I do love
episodes when the story affects Patrick to the point that he can no
longer maintain the smile and we finally see the pain always lurking
underneath, because Simon does that so well too, but I believe he is
giving as much thought to "happy" Jane as he is to distressed Jane.

I'm 3/4 through the Guardian set (and plan to write a little something
about it once I'm done, which should be in a day or two) and watching
Simon as Nick is really kind of breathtaking because his body language
is so utterly different from Patrick's.  The two characters do  have a
number of things in common (including charisma -- people keep
gravitating to Nick no matter how much he annoys them) but their
physicality is completely opposite from one another.  And in each case
it seems completely natural and just how that character should be.

I would say the same for Jeff in Smith, who is yet another animal
entirely and again, his physicality is nothing like either Nick or
Patrick.  And yet he absolutely is who he is -- there is nothing
forced about Simon as Jeff either.

Good grief.  Matt Roush, take off your blinders.

But, Matt, I'm glad you liked the episode.  I'm really looking forward
to 10 p.m. tonight. :)

   -- Paula

On Nov 19, 2009, at 4:06 PM, tiacelaya wrote:

>
> From TV Guide, love how they praised Simon. The link to the whole
> article is listed below, which you can read after the episode aires,
> but really there isn't anything said that you most likely have read
> already.
>
> *********************************
>
> Many weeks, you might think Simon Baker coasts on his star charisma
> to make this show a winner. This week, he earns that Emmy nomination
> he got last season (as a reward for the show's breakout status)
>
> The Mentalist usually feels like the light soufflé that comes at the
> end of a long and busy Thursday night of TV. This week, it's more
> like the main course.
>
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ylr9aog
>
>
>

http://www.cinematical.com/2009/11/14/women-in-trouble-review/

Simon's role is mentioned but no discussion of his performance.

   -- Paula

A less than enthusiastic review of Women in Trouble from the Friday, November 13
New York Times.  But a kind word for Simon. :)

  -- Paula

http://movies.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/movies/13women.html?scp=1&sq=Women%20in%20t\
rouble&st=cse


MOVIE REVIEW
Women in Trouble (2009)
Love, Sex, Whatever

By MANOHLA DARGIS
Published: November 13, 2009

To judge by the swelling bosoms spilling out of the frame, the lingerie bill for
“Women in Trouble” must have been estimable. An ensemble piece that never
coheres despite a clutch of appealing actresses — notably Carla Gugino and
Emmanuelle Chriqui — this movie was written and directed by Sebastian Gutierrez,
whose screenplay credits include “The Big Bounce” (the remake), “Gothika”
and“Snakes on a Plane.” It’s a discouraging list, true, but Ms. Gugino, an
interesting actress who has yet to find a big-screen career worthy of her,
seemed reason alone to take the chance. (And Robyn Hitchcock did the score.)

She wasn’t, though the fault is scarcely hers, or Mr. Hitchcock’s. Although some
early flashes of color suggest that Mr. Gutierrez is headed for Almodóvar
country, he soon settles into discount Robert Altman: a character mosaic with a
smattering of different if fundamentally homogenous Los Angeles women yammering
about love, sex, whatever. (Josh Brolin, meanwhile, tries out a British accent
in one story thread while Simon Baker gives a little dignity to another.)

The amateurish production values might be pardonable if the clichés — the
hard-core porn star with the soft heart, the therapist who needs to heal herself
— inside the poorly lighted, badly shot images weren’t so absurd and often
insulting. Mr. Gutierrez, as suggested by all the décolletage, appears to be a
breast man. Too bad he didn’t set his sights higher.

“Women in Trouble” is rated R (Under 17 requires accompanying parent or adult
guardian). Dirty words.

WOMEN IN TROUBLE

Opens on Friday in Manhattan.

Written, produced and directed by Sebastian Gutierrez; director of photography,
Cale Finot; edited by Lisa Bromwell; music by Robyn Hitchcock; production
designer, Daniel Mailley; released by Screen Media Films. Running time: 1 hour
32 minutes.

WITH: Carla Gugino (Elektra Luxx), Connie Britton (Doris), Adrianne Palicki
(Holly Rocket), Emmanuelle Chriqui (Bambi), Simon Baker (Travis McPherson) and
Josh Brolin (Nick Chapel).

Misread it, only 14,000. 6 months at most - it'll be a doddle.

--- In simonbaker@yahoogroups.com, "frances.lee10" <frances.lee10@...> wrote:
>
> Thought I would just mention that I'm really enjoying reading the old posts
from 2003. There's some extremely interesting stuff here. Have got to number 600
so far, so should only take me about 4 years to read the remaining 140 or so
thousand!
> Frances
>

Thought I would just mention that I'm really enjoying reading the old posts from
2003. There's some extremely interesting stuff here. Have got to number 600 so
far, so should only take me about 4 years to read the remaining 140 or so
thousand!
Frances

Hi Linda
You certainly haven't bored me - I love this type of discussion.

I agree with you that Burton was very work oriented. And there are several
scenes where its clear that Nick feels that business is his father's No. 1
priority, and is hurt by this. So yes I think this was a big factor in sending
Nick away. And this was coupled with the earlier point you made about a father's
role for that generation. At that time Dad's generally didn't look after their
children (apart from providing for them of course). But I think there is another
factor in play - the extent to which Anne was responsible for Nick being sent
away. In 'BBM' we see that she didn't want him around during her illness. And
I'm sure I remember Burton telling Liz that he returned to Anne and looked after
her when she became ill. So this meant that Nick had to be separated from them
both. I don't think Nick ever realised this.

I appreciate that Anne had a lot to deal with at that time, but think she would
have better served Nick's happiness by trying to heal the rift between father
and son. Particularly as I feel she was largely responsible for that rift. As is
sadly so often the case, when couples split there is a lot of bitterness. And
that bitterness is often very damaging to the children. I think there is quite a
bit of evidence to show that Anne felt very bitter towards Burton, and made
remarks to Nick, or in his hearing, that were anti-Burton. Even Liz accused her
of being more motivated to hurt Burton than to help Nick. Which is so sad.

Thanks for the opportunity to release these thoughts which have been buzzing
round my head and needed a way out!

Best wishes, Frances

--- In simonbaker@yahoogroups.com, Linda Wilson <Linda_31467@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, Frances. Yes, I think that episode (which I didn't like but could
appreciate some of the insights it provided into how extensive some of Nick's
issues were) gave a look into Anne's problems, too. I'm sure she greeted Nick
with a hug many times, but I'm also sure that as she got sicker and closer to
death she had a lot of other things demanding her attention, one of them being
what she could do to ensure Nick would be cared for and more important, happy.
It was beginning to be apparent to her that the only possibility was Burton,
inadequate though she knew him to be, and I'm sure that accounted for a lot of
her being preoccupied much of the time. She really didn't have anyone else--Liz
was barely out of her teens herself, if the chronology we were provided with was
accurate, at least in part, and no court would have allowed her guardianship of
a 12-year-old if a living parent who had already indicated his willingness to
step up was in the picture. Then, too, Anne was unfaithful and used pills--the
reason Burton gave for divorcing her--and some of the baggage connected with
that ws probably still present. And from what I've read and heard, there comes a
time if one is dealing with a terminal illness that everything else but
preparing for death becomes a non-issue.
> Burton's willingness to send Nick off to school when he had fought for custody
originally seemed a contradiction inconsistent with what has been said by and
about him, but what I think happened is that Burton realized just how much time
and effort working through bereavement with a resentful tween would entail and
coupled with the fact that he was mourning Anne himself--if you remember, he
said in Season 1 that they had talked about getting back together, but she got
too sick too fast to be able to act on the idea--that he was overwhelmed. Also,
we're talking the early 1980s, a tumultuous time for American business (although
I don't know a time that hasn't been!) and I think he was probably working very
hard to build the firm. I know a lot of Sara Grauvogel's fiction and that of
some other people has postulated Burton having other children besides Nick, but
I think that Burton's real "other child" if you will, was Fallin & Associates.
From what I've heard and experienced, building up your own business, whatever it
may be, requires an enormous amount of time and energy as well as ability to
keep an awful lot of eggs in the air at once. Add to that Burton's need to
succeed in law, a very demanding profession, and given that another thought in
his mind was "I'm doing this for Nicholas" and I can see where he would have
thought a boarding school, especially some prep school with a good reputation
for attendance ensuring admission to a good college and law school (a very large
consideration for some parents here in the States) represented a solution that
would work for him and Nick both. Also, Burton seems to think that any problem
can be solved if you throw enough money at it, and most of the time it
works--except, poor fellow, for the things that are most important.
> I didn't mean to run on so long, but to my amazement I have a little spare
time today, and this is a very pleasant way to use it. I hope I haven't bored
you.
> Linda
>
> To: simonbaker@yahoogroups.com
> From: frances.lee10@...
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:49:25 +0000
> Subject: [Simonbaker] Re: Nick & Burton
>
>
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>       Hi Linda
>
> I think this is a very good point about Burton being from a time when men
didn't show physical affection to their sons. Certainly in the UK for this
generation, men were seen very much as the breadwinners and women as the
home-makers. My dad wouldn't even discipline us, he saw that as my mum's job.
>
> This has reminded me of something that I have wondered about from time to
time. Until 'Beautiful Blue Mystic', I had always assumed that Nick's
relationship with his mother had been warm and affectionate. So in this episode
when young Nick returns from school, I expected to see a welcoming hug from his
mum. But the scene between them is very brief and there is no physical contact.
So the question is, am I over-analysing this, or was it intended to show young
Nick as a sad, isolated little boy without any demonstrative affection in his
life?
>
> Best wishes, Frances
>
>
>
> --- In simonbaker@yahoogroups.com, Linda Wilson <Linda_31467@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You and Frances are both right, many times over, Shoshie. For my part, the
reason I started watching TG in the first place was Nick and Burton. Although
the Nick-Lulu thing had its moments, boy-girl relationships in any and all
permutations and combinations are, frankly, a dime a dozen and get boring after
a bit, at least for me. Besides, It was apparent that  many of Nick's problems
stemmed from his relationship with Burton--his resentment that his mother was
dead and his father alive, his anger at Burton's sending him to boarding school
at a lime when Nick would have needed the familiarity of home most, Burton's
seeming insensitivity to Nick's needs, such as the Shannon business.
>
> > Some understanding of Burton is needed here. (BTW, Dabney Coleman's
performance was nothing short of amazing, as was the chemistry between thee two
characters.) Burton came from a time and place where men did not show physical
affection for each other aside from the occasional slap on the fanny in a
football huddle or pat on the back. However much he might have wanted to (and I
know I wrote some fanfic that had him transcending this barrier a little), I
honestly don't think he could have: the sociocultural attitudes would have been
too strong. I have no doubt that Burton shed tears over Nick more than once, but
I'm also sure that no one else ever saw them.
>
> > It' time to get out of this office for today; when I get a chance I'll chat
more. I love this discussion, though, and I'm glad I have a chance to join in.
>
> >
>
> > To: simonbaker@yahoogroups.com
>
> > From: shoshie1943@
>
> > Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:31:01 -0800
>
> > Subject: Re: [Simonbaker] Nick & Burton
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> >       Thank you, Frances! Your observations are so spot-on and
well-expressed that I love to read them. Your description of the scenes between
Nick and Burton as heart-breaking, infuriating, and uplifting is perfect.
However, your comment that there's never any show of physical affection between
them isn't strictly the case. But the affection, (other than an off-hand pat on
the back) in the few instances it happens, is when one or the other of them,
almost always Nick, is in emotional and/or physical extremis, when he is
completely broken down, sobbing, fallen off the wagon, and so forth, when all
his defenses are not just down but trampled almost to death. And I remember so
many heart-rending scenes when Burton wants to reach out to Nick and Nick
withdraws and leaves the room. Nick is always walking out on someone or some
>
> >  situation. Nick's inability to accept even a hug from anyone or any kind of
affection except accompanied by sex is of course emblematic of his shutdown
emotionally. This is the way Simon intended to play the character, as he has
said in interviews, as almost completely interior. And then there is the "parent
squirm factor," so evident in Nick and Burton scenes. Speaking for myself and
probably a lot of people, I loved my parents, but I wouldn't be caught dead
discussing anything intimate or emotional or personal with them, especially my
father. I can certainly feel that coming from both Nick and Burton. My father
and I had a difficult relationship, and there were many times watching Nick and
Burton that I thought, if my father ever tried to reach out to me like that, I
wouldn't have been able to run fast enough. Both my parents are gone now, which
tends to focus the mind on what could have been. Please forgive the lack of
proper paragraphing
>
> >  and organization here. I just have to get all of this out or it will
evaporate from my elderly brain. Thanks again for your great post.
>
> >
>
> > Shoshie
>
> >
>
> > --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Frances Lee <frances.lee10@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From: Frances Lee <frances.lee10@>
>
> > Subject: [Simonbaker] Nick & Burton
>
> > To: simonbaker@yahoogroups.com
>
> > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 1:48 AM
>
> >
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> >
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> > Hi Shostie
>
> >
>
> > Thank you so much for this lovely generous welcome to the group. I can't
believe you watched all 67 episodes in about a week - you must have been
emotionally drained at the end of it. Your husband sounds like a saint. I
daren't even mention Simon Baker to my friends any more, because they just roll
their eyes at me!
>
> >
>
> > I completely agree with you that Nick and Burton's relationship is
compelling and undoubtedly the most important one in the program. And we're on
the same wavelength as Simon here. I remember reading an interview where he said
that for him the core of the program was the relationship between Nick and his
father.
>
> >
>
> > I find the scenes between them both heart-breaking and infuriating, but
sometimes uplifting. And for me, understanding Burton is an important part of
the key to understanding Nick. Over time, you get to discover the deep love they
have for eachother, and I think this is a discovery for them as
>
> >  well. But I think what makes it so heart-rending is that the process of
discovery is such a painful one, as they are both so emotionally repressed. Its
revealing that there is never any show of physical affection between them, and
that Burton is incapable of giving Nick emotional support. All his help and
support is of a practical nature. I think this is not unusual - I know so many
families where Mum provides the emotional support and encouragement and Dad
provides the practical help and quite frequently, the criticism.
>
> >
>
> > I find it interesting to speculate on the part Nick's mother played in
shaping Nick, and of colouring his perception of his father. Nick clearly
idolises his mother, and Burton, perhaps misguidedly, has protected Nick from
the reality. (Of course, the issue of whether children should always be told the
truth is a fundamental question that the program raises, and is a fascinating
topic in its own right!) But Nick does come to
>
> >  realise that much of what his mother said about Burton is untrue - that is
part of his journey of discovery. And without having consciously thought about
it, I discovered that I felt very angry with her. And the more I thought about
it, the more angry I felt for the damage she did. But am I being too harsh on
her? I'd love to hear what you think.
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> > __________________________________________________________
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> > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
>
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
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> _________________________________________________________________
> Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live.
>
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DVD Verdict weighs in with its review of The Guardian.

http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/guardian1.php

The reviewer likes the show but doesn't find it memorable and not sure
if he'd bother watching seasons 2 and 3.  However,  he is very
impressed by the performances of Simon and Dabney Coleman.

   -- Paula

Hi Linda
I think this is a very good point about Burton being from a time when men didn't
show physical affection to their sons. Certainly in the UK for this generation,
men were seen very much as the breadwinners and women as the home-makers. My dad
wouldn't even discipline us, he saw that as my mum's job.
This has reminded me of something that I have wondered about from time to time.
Until 'Beautiful Blue Mystic', I had always assumed that Nick's relationship
with his mother had been warm and affectionate. So in this episode when young
Nick returns from school, I expected to see a welcoming hug from his mum. But
the scene between them is very brief and there is no physical contact. So the
question is, am I over-analysing this, or was it intended to show young Nick as
a sad, isolated little boy without any demonstrative affection in his life?
Best wishes, Frances

--- In simonbaker@yahoogroups.com, Linda Wilson <Linda_31467@...> wrote:
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> You and Frances are both right, many times over, Shoshie. For my part, the
reason I started watching TG in the first place was Nick and Burton. Although
the Nick-Lulu thing had its moments, boy-girl relationships in any and all
permutations and combinations are, frankly, a dime a dozen and get boring after
a bit, at least for me. Besides, It was apparent that  many of Nick's problems
stemmed from his relationship with Burton--his resentment that his mother was
dead and his father alive, his anger at Burton's sending him to boarding school
at a lime when Nick would have needed the familiarity of home most, Burton's
seeming insensitivity to Nick's needs, such as the Shannon business.
> Some understanding of Burton is needed here. (BTW, Dabney Coleman's
performance was nothing short of amazing, as was the chemistry between thee two
characters.) Burton came from a time and place where men did not show physical
affection for each other aside from the occasional slap on the fanny in a
football huddle or pat on the back. However much he might have wanted to (and I
know I wrote some fanfic that had him transcending this barrier a little), I
honestly don't think he could have: the sociocultural attitudes would have been
too strong. I have no doubt that Burton shed tears over Nick more than once, but
I'm also sure that no one else ever saw them.
> It' time to get out of this office for today; when I get a chance I'll chat
more. I love this discussion, though, and I'm glad I have a chance to join in.
>
> To: simonbaker@yahoogroups.com
> From: shoshie1943@...
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:31:01 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Simonbaker] Nick & Burton
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>       Thank you, Frances! Your observations are so spot-on and well-expressed
that I love to read them. Your description of the scenes between Nick and Burton
as heart-breaking, infuriating, and uplifting is perfect. However, your comment
that there's never any show of physical affection between them isn't strictly
the case. But the affection, (other than an off-hand pat on the back) in the few
instances it happens, is when one or the other of them, almost always Nick, is
in emotional and/or physical extremis, when he is completely broken down,
sobbing, fallen off the wagon, and so forth, when all his defenses are not just
down but trampled almost to death. And I remember so many heart-rending scenes
when Burton wants to reach out to Nick and Nick withdraws and leaves the room.
Nick is always walking out on someone or some
>  situation. Nick's inability to accept even a hug from anyone or any kind of
affection except accompanied by sex is of course emblematic of his shutdown
emotionally. This is the way Simon intended to play the character, as he has
said in interviews, as almost completely interior. And then there is the "parent
squirm factor," so evident in Nick and Burton scenes. Speaking for myself and
probably a lot of people, I loved my parents, but I wouldn't be caught dead
discussing anything intimate or emotional or personal with them, especially my
father. I can certainly feel that coming from both Nick and Burton. My father
and I had a difficult relationship, and there were many times watching Nick and
Burton that I thought, if my father ever tried to reach out to me like that, I
wouldn't have been able to run fast enough. Both my parents are gone now, which
tends to focus the mind on what could have been. Please forgive the lack of
proper paragraphing
>  and organization here. I just have to get all of this out or it will
evaporate from my elderly brain. Thanks again for your great post.
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> Shoshie
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> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Frances Lee <frances.lee10@...> wrote:
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> From: Frances Lee <frances.lee10@...>
> Subject: [Simonbaker] Nick & Burton
> To: simonbaker@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 1:48 AM
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> Hi Shostie
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> Thank you so much for this lovely generous welcome to the group. I can't
believe you watched all 67 episodes in about a week - you must have been
emotionally drained at the end of it. Your husband sounds like a saint. I
daren't even mention Simon Baker to my friends any more, because they just roll
their eyes at me!
>
> I completely agree with you that Nick and Burton's relationship is compelling
and undoubtedly the most important one in the program. And we're on the same
wavelength as Simon here. I remember reading an interview where he said that for
him the core of the program was the relationship between Nick and his father.
>
> I find the scenes between them both heart-breaking and infuriating, but
sometimes uplifting. And for me, understanding Burton is an important part of
the key to understanding Nick. Over time, you get to discover the deep love they
have for eachother, and I think this is a discovery for them as
>  well. But I think what makes it so heart-rending is that the process of
discovery is such a painful one, as they are both so emotionally repressed. Its
revealing that there is never any show of physical affection between them, and
that Burton is incapable of giving Nick emotional support. All his help and
support is of a practical nature. I think this is not unusual - I know so many
families where Mum provides the emotional support and encouragement and Dad
provides the practical help and quite frequently, the criticism.
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> I find it interesting to speculate on the part Nick's mother played in shaping
Nick, and of colouring his perception of his father. Nick clearly idolises his
mother, and Burton, perhaps misguidedly, has protected Nick from the reality.
(Of course, the issue of whether children should always be told the truth is a
fundamental question that the program raises, and is a fascinating topic in its
own right!) But Nick does come to
>  realise that much of what his mother said about Burton is untrue - that is
part of his journey of discovery. And without having consciously thought about
it, I discovered that I felt very angry with her. And the more I thought about
it, the more angry I felt for the damage she did. But am I being too harsh on
her? I'd love to hear what you think.
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> Best wishes.
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> Frances
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