Last year, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote (elfscript # 4273), in reply to
Florian Dombach's speculation that in Quenya, diphthongs might
originally have all been spelt without reversing the "normal" reading
direction (for which _nainie_ and _caita_ from the Namaarie
inscription were quoted), but that this might (story-internally) have
changed in the later ages under the influence of "mannish"
orthography:

>The modes where the letters bear the preceding tehtar use the same
>letters for the second elements of diphthongs as for the initial
>approximants /j/ and /w/. This could hardly initiate a system that
>splits them up.

With the exception of Sindarin as attested in KL, version 3, as you
also note in your essay "What is General Use?".

In fact, for the Sindarin mode where "tengwar bear the preceding
tehtar" (often called "Standard" or "Mode of Gondor"), we seem to
have no examples for /w/ at all, be it initial or as second part of a
diphthong.

As for /j/, as you also point out, yanta is used for the initial
sound, but anna for the second part of diphthongs (in marked contrast
to English, where anna is used in both positions, just as any /w/ is
always represented by vala)--so here we do in fact see the same kind
of split for initial and diphthong representation as in modes in
which tengwar bear the following tehtar (such as the "classical"
Quenya mode).
So your entire argument against Florian's speculation seems to rest
largely on the English modes, which strictly speaking would seem (to
me) rather irrelevant for story-internal conjectures.

With regard to this whole /j/, /w/ issue, you write in your essay's
summary:

>For English I have found the following: If the tehtar are placed on
the
>following tengwar, then any w is represented by vala, and any y by
anna,
>no matter if it is syllable-initial or second part of a diphtong.
But if
>the tehtar are generally placed on the preceding tengwar, then -w as
a
>second part of a diphtong is represented by uure, and -y as a second
>part of a diphtong by yanta, and both tengwar bear the preceding
tehta,
>breaking thus with the normal tengwar-tehtar order. A <u> in a proper
>name may be represented by the u-tehta on a short carrier.
>
>For Sindarin, I assume that it's the same but for syllable-initial y-
,
>which is represented by yanta, not by anna. It might be that any w
would
>be represented by uure, not by vala, but this wouldn't be based on
>anything but on an assumed analogy to yanta.

When you say that you assume "for Sindarin it's the same", I assume
(in accordance with your essay) you mean that where tehtar are placed
on the preceding tengwar, initial /j/, /w/ are spelled with vala and
anna, while diphthong glide /j/, /w/ are spelled with uure and yanta?
Would there be any attestations at all for this? Or is this pure
speculation? As far as I can tell, the only examples for Sindarin
spelt with tehtar on the preceding tengwar are DTS 43, 44 and 58, and
in none of them the sounds in question occur.
(BTW, maybe one should use a shorter convention for the
cumbersome "tehtar placed on..." stuff, how about BT (bottom-top
[reading direction]) for modes where tehtar are placed on the
preceding tengwar, and TB for the other kind.)

To resume my argument, it seems thus that for BT Sindarin modes we
have nothing but pure conjecture, while for TB modes (as in KL) we do
see a dichotomy of initial vs. diphthong glide representation _where
we have attested examples_, which admittedly is only for BT initial
and diphthong glide /j/. So again, your statement that BT modes "use
the same
letters for the second elements of diphthongs as for the initial
approximants /j/ and /w/" would seem too broad.

You acknowledge this idiosyncrasy in your essay, and speculate
that "Sindarin texts that use yanta for the consonantal y-sound are
spelt according to Westron use". This would seem to contradict what
you write in # 4273 about probable Westron spelling, "DTS 52 gives
vala and anna the names wν and yι, whereas yanta and ϊre are given
the names ai and au", which would seem to point to yanta for
diphthong-glide /j/ rather than initial /j/, and anna for initial /j/
instead--the exact opposite of Sindarin usage. (Again, for -w/w- we
lack attestation AFAIK.)

Even so, I still fail to see why an "orthographical adaptation"
_might_ not have occured with the diphthong glide /j/ in Quenya (i.e.
reversal of _possible_ original BT direction in diphthongs to TB
spelling under the influence of Sindarin, which also shows dichotomy
in the case of initial vs. diphthong /j/), even though it was "a
language of the learned", especially since it wasn't the mother
tongue of most Elves (and certainly not Men) in the later ages.
Orthography might not be quite that resistent to change.
Of course this wouldn't explain why Quenya has initial /j/ = anna and
diphthong /j/ = yanta, and Sindarin the exact reverse. Maybe we would
see the same symmetry for w- and -w, so that we could speculate that
Sindarin would see uure for w- and vala for -w?

I don't quite follow why an assumption for Sindarin that "any /w/
would be represented by uure, not by vala" could be based on "an
assumed analogy to yanta", when you do establish in your essay that
there is a dichotomy for TB initial and diphthong glide /j/.
Shouldn't we then "by analogy" also expect that TB initial /w/ be
uure, but diphthong glide /w/ be vala, as my above (pure) conjecture
has it?

Greetings,

Hisilome

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "pikachuinef" <henarmg@t...> wrote:
> Hi everyone!!
>
> I΄m spanish, from Madrid, and I΄m looking for the most correct way to
> write "Isilwen" (Moon Lady or Maid of the Moon) in tengwar for my
> tatoo, and I΄ve been said too many ways for it. Specially because the
> question of using Silme or Sule when translating "s" of Isilwen, and
> the representation of "w".
>
> In other forums they told me to use the codes iTjTy5$ (for Sindarin
> mode) and `B3TjnR5 (for Quenya mode) and then transcribe them into
> tengwar fonts in Microsoft Word. Are they right? You know, I want mi
> tatoo to say what exactly I want it says!!

Hello "pikachuinef",

these above codes seem ok but I can't help commenting :)

In both Quenya and Sindarin, the Sϊle < Thϊle would be more proper for
the S in _Isilwen_.
And since Wilya > Vilya was later used for a V < W in Quenya, I think
that writing Vala in both Quenya and Sindarin "tehtar mode" would be
correct as well. The Sindarin "full mode" transcription uses Vilya for
W since Vala is 'reserved' for M.

So my suggestion:
Sindarin 3Gj%y5$ or `3`jnl6
Quenya `B3GjyR5

The first code for Sindarin is a "tehtar mode" transcription, the
latter is a "full mode" transcription. There are (logically) no
examples of a "full mode" for Quenya.

And, one little note in the end: there is no "Sindarin mode" or "Quenya
mode", the modes are only "full mode" (the Sindarin 'Moria Gate
inscription' is an example) or "tehtar mode" (the Quenya 'Namαrie' or
Sindarin 'King's Letter, version III' are the examples).

Hope this helps a bit.

Lucy

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> And since Wilya > Vilya was later used for a V < W
> in Quenya, I think
> that writing Vala in both Quenya and Sindarin
> "tehtar mode" would be
> correct as well. The Sindarin "full mode"

I havent been concerned with Tengwar for many months
but I think you are wrong here. I dont remember seeing
w written with Vala, especially in Quenya

> And, one little note in the end: there is no
> "Sindarin mode" or "Quenya
> mode", the modes are only "full mode" (the Sindarin
> 'Moria Gate
> inscription' is an example) or "tehtar mode" (the
> Quenya 'Namαrie' or
> Sindarin 'King's Letter, version III' are the
> examples).

of course there are Sindarin and Quenya modes. In
Sindarin modes for example, Ando is d, while in Quenya
it's nd






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--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Palatinus <elfiness@y...> wrote:

Hello Gildor - have changed your nick? ;),
> I havent been concerned with Tengwar for many months
> but I think you are wrong here. I dont remember seeing
> w written with Vala, especially in Quenya

you're right, hasty me...

> > And, one little note in the end: there is no
> > "Sindarin mode" or "Quenya
> > mode", the modes are only "full mode" (the Sindarin
> > 'Moria Gate
> > inscription' is an example) or "tehtar mode" (the
> > Quenya 'Namαrie' or
> > Sindarin 'King's Letter, version III' are the
> > examples).
>
> of course there are Sindarin and Quenya modes. In
> Sindarin modes for example, Ando is d, while in Quenya
> it's nd

I can't recall this correctly but I think we've discussed this before
that we should call a "mode" only the difference between full and
tehtar way of trascribing. If this is not true anymore...

Lucy

P.S. So the Quenya "code" would be then `B3GjnR5

Dave Hisilome wrote:
> Last year, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote (elfscript # 4273), in reply to
> Florian Dombach's speculation that in Quenya, diphthongs might
> originally have all been spelt without reversing the "normal"
> reading direction (for which _nainie_ and _caita_ from the Namaarie
> inscription were quoted), but that this might (story-internally)
> have changed in the later ages under the influence of "mannish"
> orthography:
>
> >The modes where the letters bear the preceding tehtar use the same
> >letters for the second elements of diphthongs as for the initial
> >approximants /j/ and /w/. This could hardly initiate a system that
> >splits them up.
>
> With the exception of Sindarin as attested in KL, version 3, as you
> also note in your essay "What is General Use?".
>
> In fact, for the Sindarin mode where "tengwar bear the preceding
> tehtar" (often called "Standard" or "Mode of Gondor"), we seem to
> have no examples for /w/ at all, be it initial or as second part of
> a diphthong.
>
> As for /j/, as you also point out, yanta is used for the initial
> sound, but anna for the second part of diphthongs (in marked
> contrast to English, where anna is used in both positions, just as
> any /w/ is always represented by vala)--so here we do in fact see
> the same kind of split for initial and diphthong representation as
> in modes in which tengwar bear the following tehtar (such as the
> "classical" Quenya mode).

Well, no, in Sindarin, yanta is used initially and for second parts of
diphthongs. What messes things up is the transcription into Latin
letters that doesn't represent all the yanta letters in the same way:
Initial yanta is represented by i, but second-part-of-diphthong yanta
is represented by e. Don't tell me these are different sounds. The /j/
in the word yes isn't identical to the /j/ in the word boy either.

...
> You
...
> speculate
> that "Sindarin texts that use yanta for the consonantal y-sound are
> spelt according to Westron use". This would seem to contradict what
> you write in # 4273 about probable Westron spelling, "DTS 52 gives
> vala and anna the names wν and yι, whereas yanta and ϊre are given
> the names ai and au", which would seem to point to yanta for
> diphthong-glide /j/ rather than initial /j/, and anna for initial
> /j/ instead--the exact opposite of Sindarin usage.
...

This doesn't rule out the possibility that the difference between
Westron initial y and Sindarin initial i was so pronounced that
general use writers used different letters for these sounds, just like
Roman writers thought the difference between Greek y and Roman u to be
so pronounced that they used different letters.

Anyway, that hypothesis about Westron pronunciation is very speculative.

I see and admit that this essay's wording about Sindarin is confusing,
especially in the resume.

If someone wanted to read the whole essay, it's in the files section:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/j_mach_wust/general_use.txt

---------------------------
j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
wrote:
> Dave Hisilome wrote:
> > Last year, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote (elfscript # 4273), in reply to
> > Florian Dombach's speculation that in Quenya, diphthongs might
> > originally have all been spelt without reversing the "normal"
> > reading direction (for which _nainie_ and _caita_ from the
Namaarie
> > inscription were quoted), but that this might (story-internally)
> > have changed in the later ages under the influence of "mannish"
> > orthography:
> >
> > >The modes where the letters bear the preceding tehtar use the
same
> > >letters for the second elements of diphthongs as for the initial
> > >approximants /j/ and /w/. This could hardly initiate a system
that
> > >splits them up.
> >
> > With the exception of Sindarin as attested in KL, version 3, as
you
> > also note in your essay "What is General Use?".
> >
> > In fact, for the Sindarin mode where "tengwar bear the preceding
> > tehtar" (often called "Standard" or "Mode of Gondor"), we seem to
> > have no examples for /w/ at all, be it initial or as second part
of
> > a diphthong.
> >
> > As for /j/, as you also point out, yanta is used for the initial
> > sound, but anna for the second part of diphthongs (in marked
> > contrast to English, where anna is used in both positions, just as
> > any /w/ is always represented by vala)--so here we do in fact see
> > the same kind of split for initial and diphthong representation as
> > in modes in which tengwar bear the following tehtar (such as the
> > "classical" Quenya mode).
>
> Well, no, in Sindarin, yanta is used initially and for second parts
of
> diphthongs. What messes things up is the transcription into Latin
> letters that doesn't represent all the yanta letters in the same
way:
> Initial yanta is represented by i, but second-part-of-diphthong
yanta
> is represented by e. Don't tell me these are different sounds.
The /j/
> in the word yes isn't identical to the /j/ in the word boy either.

<<<<<No, of course they are different.>>>>>
<<<<<Yes, but _ai_ and _ui_ are spelled with anna. And I don't know
if the second part of _ae_ and _ai_ are indeed identical to initial
yanta as in _iorhael_ etc. Aren't the second sounds, the "glides", in
all the four above diphthongs all rather similar to the sound
represented by "y" in "boy", since you bring up that example? Tolkien
himself somewhere stated, I think, that the difference between _ae_
and _ai_ in Sindarin was rather small. So why use anna in _ai_ and
_ui_ and not yanta as well? I don't think the second parts of _ai,
ui_ correspond anymore to the "j" in "yes" (and thus the initial
sound of _iorhael_) than the second parts of _ae, oe_, so Sindarin
spelling is inconsistent in itself, not only in its Romanization.
So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_ is
identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be the
same as "Iorhael".

Your write yourself that
">For Sindarin, I assume that it's the same but for syllable-initial
y-
,which is represented by yanta, not by anna."

From this, one would gather that one might expect to see anna for
initial y-, but doesn't (which was why I said your statement that"The
modes where the letters bear the preceding tehtar use the same
>letters for the second elements of diphthongs as for the initial
>approximants /j/ and /w/" is too broad, and you admit that the
phrasing might be confusting :)). And one might expect that since
anna would correspond to the sound in _ui, ai_ (second part of
diphthongs)--at least that's how I read it, maybe I'm wrong. I agree
then, that y- and _uI, aI_ are different (and the latter more
like "boY", but would you really pronounce, say, the _i_ in _Iorhael_
exactly like the _e_ in _Iorhael_? And how does the _e_ in _Iorhael_
differ from the _i_ in, say, _drannail_? There should be a slight
difference, agreed, or they wouldn't be spelled and identified as
different diphthongs by the Professor, but I'd say neither of them
corresponds exactly to the "y" in "yes."

Maybe Sindarin doesn't fit into any nice patterns (as English modes
do on this particular point). ;)>>>>>

Hisilome

Before I forget it: J. 'Mach' Wust, how _would_ you explain the unusual
spellings of _nainie_ and _caita_ in Namaarie? Just "boring" spelling
errors? Just curious if you have another theory...;-)

Hisilome

> I can't recall this correctly but I think we've discussed this
before
> that we should call a "mode" only the difference between full and
> tehtar way of trascribing. If this is not true anymore...
>
> Lucy
>
Well, that's one way of categorizing tengwar modes, probably the
broadest :). I think most people still agree, though, that there is
such a thing as a distinct (often called "classical") Quenya mode that
is characterized (as Gildor hinted) by the use of the second and
fourth
tyeller for nasalized voiced/unvoiced plosives, as well as some other
special signs, e.g. arda for rd, alda for ld...obviously this is where
the names for the tengwar come from. Also, other than in the General
Use, where both reading directions are possible, in the Classical
Quenya mode the tehtar are are always placed on the preceding tengwar
(exception: those diphthongs).
Amanye Tenceli and J. 'Mach' Wust have the best summaries of various
tengwar modes, (full/orthograpic, full/phonemic, tehtar/orthographic,
tehtar/phonemic...everything.

Greetings,

Hisilome

Dave Hisilome wrote:
> --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@y...>
...
> > What messes things up is the transcription into Latin
> > letters that doesn't represent all the yanta letters in the same
> > way: Initial yanta is represented by i, but
> > second-part-of-diphthong yanta is represented by e. Don't tell me
> > these are different sounds. The /j/ in the word yes isn't
> > identical to the /j/ in the word boy either.
>
> <<<<<No, of course they are different.>>>>>
> <<<<<Yes, but _ai_ and _ui_ are spelled with anna. And I don't know
> if the second part of _ae_ and _ai_ are indeed identical to initial
> yanta as in _iorhael_ etc. Aren't the second sounds, the "glides",
> in all the four above diphthongs all rather similar to the sound
> represented by "y" in "boy", since you bring up that example?
> Tolkien himself somewhere stated, I think, that the difference
> between _ae_ and _ai_ in Sindarin was rather small. So why use anna
> in _ai_ and _ui_ and not yanta as well?

However small these differences are or not, they are significative.
Sindarin /ae/ and /ai/ are different phonemes, since a minimal pair of
words may differ only in this sound (I don't know whether we know
acual minimal pairs).

> I don't think the second
> parts of _ai, ui_ correspond anymore to the "j" in "yes" (and thus
> the initial sound of _iorhael_) than the second parts of _ae, oe_,
> so Sindarin spelling is inconsistent in itself, not only in its
> Romanization.
> So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_ is
> identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be
> the same as "Iorhael".

However, they actually are the same in DTS 49.

In "top-bottom" modes, any letter that is used for initial glides is
also used as a second element of diphthong.

---------------------------
j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

j 'mach' wust wrote:
> > So: if "boY" is different from "Yes" (which it is), and _Iorhael_
>>is
> > identical to "Yes" (which it is), then I think _oE, aE_ cannot be
> > the same as "Iorhael".
> >
> However, they actually are the same in DTS 49.

<<<<<_Spelled_ the same way, yes...but _maybe_ in Sindarin (as in all
living languages), not _everything_ that's spelled identically is
necessarily pronounced exactly the same way? I can only ask you
again: would you really pronounce the _i_ in _Iorhael_ exactly like
the _e_ in _Iorhael_? Personally, I find that hard to do. I also seem
to recall (sorry that I can't think of the exact source) that Tolkien
himself wrote something to the effect that diphthongs in -e are
pronounced similar to those in -i, only that instead of pronouncing a
quick "i" after the initial sound (as in "ai"), one should try to
pronounce a quick "e"--doesn't sound like the /j/ of "yes" (a
palatal) to me. :)>>>>>

>In "top-bottom" modes, any letter that is used for initial glides is
>also used as a second element of diphthong.

<<<<<Hm. That sounds slightly but significantly different from your
previous wording, which left me with the impression that any letter
that is used for initial glides in TB modes is used for the _exact
same_ (or corresponding) sound as a second element of a diphthong.
The way you put it now, I have no problem with the statement.>>>>>

Greetings,

Hisilome

I've been trying to teach myself a little bit of Elvish to try to translate
something from English to Quenya.  The following is what I tried to translate:

Be    faithful  unto death and (I will give you)
Na    veronda tenna qualmλ ar (tye antuvinyλ)

the   crown of life.
i       rνλ                 (-ya-) cuilλ.


I was confused on two points (but probably wrong in more than one).  The frist
is where I had a simple future conjugated verb between two pronouns.  I believe
I cojugated the verb correctly (antuva-will give you) but I wasn't sure if I
should add the "I" pronoun to the end of the verb and have the "you" pronoun
precede the full conjugation or if it should be written differently.  The second
point was at the preposition.  I believe that "ya" is the correct form to use
but I am
confused as to where this form would go.

Any input would be helpful.




The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar
territory.

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This should probably rather be discussed on Elfling, but...

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Daniel King <placibonin@y...> wrote:
>
> I've been trying to teach myself a little bit of Elvish to try to
translate something from English to Quenya.  The following is what I
tried to translate:
>
> Be    faithful  unto death and (I will give you)
> Na    veronda tenna qualmλ ar (tye antuvinyλ)
>
> the   crown of life.
> i       rνλ                 (-ya-) cuilλ.

There is little to object to in this translation. I suggest the
following  slight rephrasing:
_Na voronda tenna qualme ar tye antuvanye [i] rνe cuileva_


> I was confused on two points (but probably wrong in more than one).
  The frist is where I had a simple future conjugated verb between two
pronouns.  I believe I cojugated the verb correctly (antuva-will give
you) but I wasn't sure if I should add the "I" pronoun to the end of
the verb and have the "you" pronoun precede the full conjugation or if
it should be written differently.

I'd say you used a correct solution. The same syntax is used in the
"Lost Road" phrase _tye-melαne_ "I love thee", and in the Sindarin _le
linnathon_ "to thee I will chant" in the Hymn to Elbereth. There may
be other examples that I don't recall at the moment.

I do think that *_antuva_ with 1sg person suffix is *_antuvan(ye)_.
For comparison, Tolkien seems to have translated _linnathon_ as
_linduvanye_ in Quenya.


>  The second point was at the preposition.  I believe that "ya" is
the correct form to use but I am
> confused as to where this form would go.

The only translations of _ya_ that I am aware of is "which" and "as".
"Of" is usually expressed with the genitive or the possessive case in
Quenya: *_cuileo_ or *_cuileva_.


Yours,
Mεns

hello every1,

I'm new to this group so I'd like to say hi.
Now, I have a question regarding grammar:
how do you use comparatives in elvish (preferably sindarin) ? Does it
exist ? I want to write : stronger than.
any help would be welcome !

eli.

please redirect your question to elfling list

--- tcherkoff <etcherko@...> έγραψε:

> hello every1,
>
> I'm new to this group so I'd like to say hi.
> Now, I have a question regarding grammar:
> how do you use comparatives in elvish (preferably
> sindarin) ? Does it
> exist ? I want to write : stronger than.
> any help would be welcome !






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Note: forwarded message attached.




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you watch the film if you have not seen it. It is so worth it.

Watch Alexander Today At CinemaNow:
http://www.cinemanow.com/1,0,5,,0,0,16989/Alexander.htm?affid=534

I was wondering if someone could help me translate this phrase into
Quenya using Tengwar.

Carpe Diem
Sieze the Day


I've been hunting on the net all this week and its just so confusing,
and some of the links on the "tengwar in reality" page dont work :(

I'm hoping someone here can help me out..



jeff

Great minds think alike. See the attached word document. I didn't do the Latin
thing, just the English. I used YaTT to do the translation. If it needs
tweeking, somebody tell me too, before I get this put on MY arm!  :-)

Chris






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

there was no attachment man :(




--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, mac3295@c... wrote:
>
> Great minds think alike. See the attached word document. I didn't do
the Latin thing, just the English. I used YaTT to do the translation.
If it needs tweeking, somebody tell me too, before I get this put on
MY arm!  :-)
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

please don't send files in the list, especially Word
files. You can as well just copy/paste the 'code' in
the body of the mail

> Great minds think alike. See the attached word
> document. I didn't do the Latin thing, just the
> English. I used YaTT to do the translation. If it
> needs tweeking, somebody tell me too, before I get
> this put on MY arm!  :-)






___________________________________________________________
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Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
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Sorry, it got stripped. See the code cut-n-pasted below. I hope you get the
script instead of the untranslated code, but I doubt it.

Seize the day (Quenya)

8`V,T`V @ 2`C`Ϋ

Seize the day (Cursive @ 36 pt.)

8`V,T`V @ 2`C`Ϋ

Chris






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, mac3295@c... wrote:
>
> Sorry, it got stripped. See the code cut-n-pasted below. I hope you
get the script instead of the untranslated code, but I doubt it.
>
> Seize the day (Quenya)
>
> 8`V,T`V @ 2`C`Ϋ
>
> Seize the day (Cursive @ 36 pt.)
>
> 8`V,T`V @ 2`C`Ϋ
>
> Chris

Actually, it's all wrong... The English "Seize the Day" should be
written with the code:

8`V,TΙ @ 2hD

BTW there is no difference in the above codes you've given - except
the size of the letters.

Lucy

Some time ago we discussed this but Jeff hasn't replied since then so I
let the matter have gone. Now, when re-asked, I corrected the original
task, which can now be found in the Files section of this group:
calwen76/Jeff_revised.gif

Please, if still wrong... I'm opened for discussion.

Thanks, Lucy

P.S. the direct link is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_revised.gif

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
>
> Some time ago we discussed this but Jeff hasn't replied since then so I
> let the matter have gone. Now, when re-asked, I corrected the original
> task, which can now be found in the Files section of this group:
> calwen76/Jeff_revised.gif
>
> Please, if still wrong... I'm opened for discussion.
>
> Thanks, Lucy
>
> P.S. the direct link is:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_revised.gif
>

Good transcription. You could also write the _ei_ of the word _seize_
with a single vowel sign (with the e-tehta on anna) since you've done
so with the other vowel sequences.

I see one little error: You've transcribed _yaers_ instead of _years_.

The transcriptions of _replied_ and _carried_ are fine, yet they might
be discussed, since one might analyze them as _repli/carri_ + _ed_,
that is, long carrier with i-tehta above, ando with e-tehta above, in
order to preserve the original word forms... which, however, are
rather _reply/carry_... We can only hope that an analogous case will
be published one day.

---------------------------
j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

I think that the person who asks for the tattoo,
wanted a translation in Quenya, not English tengwar.

It seems that he put the english phrase in the
transcriber hoping that it would translate it, which
only transcribed the letter in a Quenya manner.






___________________________________________________________
Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail
διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών
μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
>
> Some time ago we discussed this but Jeff hasn't replied since then so I
> let the matter have gone. Now, when re-asked, I corrected the original
> task, which can now be found in the Files section of this group:
> calwen76/Jeff_revised.gif
>
> Please, if still wrong... I'm opened for discussion.
>
> Thanks, Lucy
>
> P.S. the direct link is:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/Jeff_revised.gif
>


my PC crashed shortly after and I didn't have the $$ to get a new one
until a couple months back and now I've just found this forum again..

thanks Lucy!

I'm just going to get the "Seize the Day" one done for now.

thanks for everyone's help in getting this accomplished.

jeff

Hello,
I have been reading through the archived messages here about
translating names into elvish (Quenya specifically).  I've done a
little reading and found the elvish name book
(http://www.elvish.org/elm/names and
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/elfnam.htm) which had translations of
my name (Brian/Poldon) and my wive's name (Melissa/Nione or Niere).
However, I couldn't find a translation of my daughter's name Aubrey.
It is Old French or Old German and means "Elf or supernatural being,
power."  Originally a man's name, the Germanic Alberic, that arrived
in England with the Norman Conquest. This was the name, according to
Germanic mythology, of the king of the elves. I also looked under
related names (Avery and others) and found nothing.

I believe I managed to come up with the coding of my wife's name and
my name, but I am looking for help in translating Aubrey into Quenya.

Brian - Strong - Poldon - qjY25^
Melissa - honey-bee - Nione - 5`B5^`V
Aubrey - ??? - ??? - ???

I guess step one is asking for help in the elvish word that would best
be the equivalent of Aubrey.  I don't think it would make much sense
to directly translate it as meaning elf or supernatural being, so
perhaps a word referring to an elvish ruler (or elvish queen) might be
the best translation.  I am certainly open to suggestion.

Thanks in advance,
Brian

Brian Atkinson skrev:

> Brian - Strong - Poldon - qjY25^
> Melissa - honey-bee - Nione - 5`B5^`V

These should rather be spelled qYmY5 and 5%`N5$
since they are Quenya, which has different spelling
rules from Sindarin and English

> Aubrey - ??? - ??? - ???
>
> I guess step one is asking for help in the elvish word that would best
> be the equivalent of Aubrey.  I don't think it would make much sense
> to directly translate it as meaning elf or supernatural being, so
> perhaps a word referring to an elvish ruler (or elvish queen) might be
> the best translation.  I am certainly open to suggestion.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Brian

Since Aubrey means "Elf-king" it should be translated accordingly
as Eldatar `Vm#1E6 (both masculine and feminine) or Eldatαri
`Vm#1E6T (feminine).


--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
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