I'd be grateful for any comment.
http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

Michael Everson  **  Everson Gunn Teoranta  **   http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn;  Baile an Bhķthair;  Co. Átha Cliath; Éire

>Michael Everson wrote:
>> Can anyone supply me with a photocopy or PDF of the Quettar publication(s)
>> which described the digits?
>Måns Björkman wrote:
>There is a PostScript file that summarizes the article at the TolkLang
>web page <http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang>.

"http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (170K)
This ZIP file contains TIF images (easily inserted into most
word processing programs) showing:
1) Quettar Special publication No. 1 (Sept. 1987), pages 1 and 4.
2) Beyond Bree, (Dec. 1984), page 1,  containing a reprint from
    Quettar, No. 13 (Feb 1982), containing a note from CJRT dated
    16 May 1981.
I hope that this helps.  If desired, I can convert the TIFs to PDFs
early next week.

My questions are (may have already been asked):
a) Will Tengwar from passages edited and published by CJRT be
    included in Mr Everson proposal?  Such as title page
    inscriptions.
b) Will the Tengwar proposal include the additional characters
    used in Tolkien's Old-English mode? (I didn't see them in
    the character chart.)

I will continue to examine the proposal and hope to supply this
group with additional comments next week.

A warm thank you to everyone contributing to this endeavor.
(Especially to Michael and Måns!)


--
  Daniel S. Smith - Fantasy Fonts for Windows
  email: fontmaster@...
  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/
  <><

I've made what are I think about the last changes I can make to the Cirth
proposal. I've reviewed the sources and added typeset examples of original
texts. Are there any significant texts we've missed?

Please see http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

Michael Everson  **  Everson Gunn Teoranta  **   http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn;  Baile an Bhķthair;  Co. Átha Cliath; Éire

>Though it indeed is irrelevant, I would like to point out that in the
>attested Sindarin mode where ķmatehtar are used (see the third copy of
>"The King's Letter") _númen_ actually represents /n/ and _ķre_
>represents word-final /r/. The unattested Sindarin mode used by Mr.
>Everson is, if nothing else, a slight distraction and should therefore
>be corrected.

(Call me Michael.) I am only too delighted to be corrected.

>2. "In Old English, the vowel preceding a consonant is written above it,
>and following a consonant is written after it: [...] œĘre."
>
>This is the case in the first version of "Edwin Lowdham's manuscript".
>In the second version, the consonant is pronounced *before* all vowels
>attached to it; if there is both a superscripted and a subscripted
>ķmatehta, they together represent a diphtong (as in _weorulde_).

Hm. "In some styles of writing Old English"? I'll have to look at Lowdham
again.

>3. I very much doubt that xx32 TENGWAR LETTER ANNA SINDARINWA,
>supposedly attested in the Moria Gate inscription, is a letter distinct
>from xx16 TENGWAR LETTER ANNA. This decorative version of _anna_ simply
>follows the general style of the characters in the inscription, as a
>comparison with the samples of _númen_ and _vala_ should demonstrate.

I agree, and thank you for pointing it out. In the Luthien MS there are
also lots of these decorative serifs.

>4. The title page Tengwar inscriptions in _The Silmarillion_ and _The
>Lost Road_ were not written by Tolkien, and should thus not be treated
>as reliable sources. From this follows that xx34 TENGWAR LETTER REVERSED
>PARMA and xx35 TENGWAR LETTER REVERSED FORMEN should be removed (xx4B
>TENGWAR SIGN RIGHT CURL BELOW is attested in "Edwin Lowdham's
>manuscript").

Arden Smith pointed out the Christopher Tolkien MSS. I don't know, what is
consensus? Obviously we don't want to encode just any tengwa any body
invented, but what about these?

Michael Everson  **  Everson Gunn Teoranta  **   http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn;  Baile an Bhķthair;  Co. Átha Cliath; Éire

Michael Everson wrote:
>
> (Call me Michael.) I am only too delighted to be corrected.

Okay, Michael. :)


> >4. The title page Tengwar inscriptions in _The Silmarillion_ and _The
> >Lost Road_ were not written by Tolkien, and should thus not be treated
> >as reliable sources. From this follows that xx34 TENGWAR LETTER REVERSED
> >PARMA and xx35 TENGWAR LETTER REVERSED FORMEN should be removed (xx4B
> >TENGWAR SIGN RIGHT CURL BELOW is attested in "Edwin Lowdham's
> >manuscript").
>
> Arden Smith pointed out the Christopher Tolkien MSS. I don't know, what is
> consensus? Obviously we don't want to encode just any tengwa any body
> invented, but what about these?

CJRT's Tengwar inscriptions contain many oddities that his father never
used ("stemless anna" for /s/, vowels being placed freely below the
letters, etc.). Either Christopher hasn't studied his father's English
tengwar inscriptions in great detail, or he has chosen to ignore them
and made up his own conventions. If these mirrored tengwar of his are to
be considered at all (and I beleive they shouldn't), it ought to be as
allographs of the letters they most resemble, since they carry the same
sound value.

Of course, I don't know if there is any "consensus" in this area, but I
hope so. :)

	 Måns


--
Måns Björkman                      "'Min drotzete signe then helge and!
Törnby                             Nw hauer iak Swerighe i mynne hand.'
SE-179 75 Skå                   Tha swarade en riddere, het herra Knut:
Sweden                           'Jak tror, tik brister alt annat wt'."

Aiya!

Today I have finished my Russian translation of Helge Fauskanger's article about
Black Speech and have put it on my site. I invite everybodu to look it. It lies
on http://drauger.chat.ru/bs.htm. I will be glad to receive your opinions about
mu translation ahd whole site.

Best regards,

Drauger
(mailto:drauger@...; http://drauger.chat.ru)

Aiya!

Today I've finished a Russian translation of Helge Fauskanger's article about
Entish. You may look it at http://drauger.chat.ru/entish.htm.

Best regards,

Drauger
(mailto:drauger@...; http://drauger.chat.ru)

Hello!

My name is Mariana, and I'm joining this eGroup today. I'm not
updated about your discussions, but any information that any of you
would like to share with me is very welcome.

It will be a pleasure to talk to you guys about such an interesting
matter.

Beast regards to all of you,
Mariana

Hello Mariana
and to all others listening at this eGroup

I'm a new member too.

I subscribed this eGroup two months ago, but no mails were written during
this time. Perhaps all the members discovered how to reach Aman and now
they are discussing with the Vaniar elves. It was summer and so I decided
to spend my time in a different way (a very stupid way).

but don't worry, we could restart to keep life in this eGroup.

I'm only a novician on Elven Languages, this Autumn I will probably plan
my week including one or two hours of Quenya study.
In this way I suppose to grow up quickly my knowlegde about it ;)

Obviusly you will read soon my prayers(written in this horrible english)
asking for an help!


vale

giacomo.


>
> Hello!
>
> My name is Mariana, and I'm joining this eGroup today. I'm not
> updated about your discussions, but any information that any of you
> would like to share with me is very welcome.
>
> It will be a pleasure to talk to you guys about such an interesting
> matter.
>
> Beast regards to all of you,
> Mariana
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>

>From: Giacomo Colle <Giacomo.Colle@...>
>
>Hello Mariana
>and to all others listening at this eGroup
>
>I'm a new member too.
>
>I subscribed this eGroup two months ago, but no mails were written during
>this time.  [snip]

**hi, everybody!  i'm a new subscriber though I have been reading it on the
web.  I have a web page at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/tolkalph.html
which has a few examples of calligraphy in Tolkien's alphabets.  i hope to
have more information soon, but maybe you would like to look at the artwork
now.  Let me know what you think...

** Lisa Star
** Lisa Star at earthling dot net



_________________________________________________________________________
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http://profiles.msn.com.

Well, I'm not a new member, I've been here for several months (although
with a few breaks when I didn't have the time), but I've never said
much. The main thread on this list has been the Unicode proposal, and I
understand little of that, so I didn't say a thing. My main interest are
the tengwar, specially the Quenya mode, and lately a few bits of the
sarati (a friend wanted to know the sarat for spanish ņ, we tried to
reconstruct it by analogy).
  By the way, Giacomo, you are from the italian speaking part of
Switzerland, I guess? And Mariana, you're from a spanish speaking
country? I'm from Argentina myself :)
  Giacomo, you say you're learning Quenya, are you in the Quenya and
Elfling lists? Quenya is a list where messages are written in Quenya
(with explanations in English), while Elfling is the main email list
dedicated to the study of Tolkien's languages. To suscribe to them send
a blank email to quenya-subscribe@egroups.com or
elfling-subscribe@egroups.com
  Mariana, if you are from a spanish speaking country I recommend you
join Lambenor, a list very much like Elfling but in Spanish and with a
more familiar feel (many of its members know each other in person, being
part of the spanish Tolkien society). To subscribe send a blank email to
lambenor-subscribe@egroups.com . If by any chance you're from Argentina,
please contact me directly, I'm the secretary of the language
subcomision of the argentinian Tolkien asociation (long title,
considering there are about five active people on languages in
Argentina!). My email is angasule@... .
  Angasule

Aiya ilyar!

Well, as has been said, this list has been rather quiet these past few
months. I have myself been busy with various un-ElfScriptly matters
(including a move to a new address). Now during fall I will have more
time to spend on this list, and presently I'm eagerly awaiting the
updated version of Michael Everson's Unicode proposal. How's it going,
Michael?

In an attempt to start a thread, I will throw out a little question:

Which writing system of Arda do you prefer?

If your answer is "the Tengwar", then in what mode? Do you prefer
writing the vowels as tehtar, or do you use a _quanta sarme_ ā la the
"mode of Beleriand"? I know some people prefer writing vowels with
tengwar because it's more like what they are accustomed to; myself, I
prefer using tehtar for exactly the same reason. That is, it is *not*
what I am accustomed to, and more "exotic" to my eye. I also confess
that I prefer the Tengwar, though the Sarati are admittedly even more
"exotic". When we one day get to learn more about the latter I may
change my opinion.

Do we have any _certandili_ on the list? (I.e. "cirth-lovers".)


Yrs,
	 Måns
	 (Amanye Tenceli -- http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c)


--
Måns Björkman                                             "Mun ūu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III                                        Man ūik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten                                         Un ūu mer!
Sweden                                                         An ūer."

Mans Bjorkman wrote:
>
> In an attempt to start a thread, I will throw out a little question:
>
> Which writing system of Arda do you prefer?
>
> If your answer is "the Tengwar", then in what mode? Do you prefer
> writing the vowels as tehtar, or do you use a _quanta sarme_ ā la the
> "mode of Beleriand"? I know some people prefer writing vowels with
> tengwar because it's more like what they are accustomed to; myself, I
> prefer using tehtar for exactly the same reason. That is, it is *not*
> what I am accustomed to, and more "exotic" to my eye.
  I like the quenya mode of the tengwar (with tehtar) best, somehow when
I see quanta sarme I feel something is lacking, of course that might be
because I got used to the tehtar (come to think of it, I've been writing
in the Quenya mode for more than two years)! Also, since I've been
toying with adaptations to other languages, I noticed that sometimes
just exchanging the value of two tengwar (specially if one of them isn't
one of the basic 24) changes the general look quite a bit, I for one
like the 'a' used in the Moria inscription, that looks like a 'c'; by
the way, I sometimes like calling the cero numeral 'a' (like english
calling the cero 'o'), since the numeral and the tengwa for 'a' are
similar (if not the same, I haven't seen the numeral except in Dan
Smith's fonts), and the 'a' was so common it was often ommited when
writing with tehtar.

> I also confess
> that I prefer the Tengwar, though the Sarati are admittedly even more
> "exotic". When we one day get to learn more about the latter I may
> change my opinion.
  I know some people are working on the sarati (in fact, I talked with
one of them less than a minute ago!), I think this person in particular
is adapting them to write Spanish (since he was wondering about the
spanish ņ!).

> Do we have any _certandili_ on the list? (I.e. "cirth-lovers".)
  I do have some interest in the certar, since the tengwar are very hard
to use on hard materials, but I never got much into them since I don't
have the book (The Treason of Isengard, right?) that has the tables and
with the tengwar it took me quite a while, and still have some more to
go (I'm working on an 'elvish library', but I've to get some training in
the scribal arts first). I see the certar much like the norse the runes,
for short writings, but not for books, unless there is a cursive form?
  Here in the Argentinian Tolkien Society we have a Spanish mode of the
certar (it went official on the national meeting, held the 2nd of
September).

>        (Amanye Tenceli -- http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c)
  Good page! We have been going there for most of the sarati questions.
  What, if any, are the current projects of the Stockholm Tolkien
Society? (there's no Swedish Tolkien Society as such, is there? They are
a group of smaller ones? I believe in Chile there is a similar system)
Here in Argentina we don't have any official projects right now on the
writing systems, since the certar mode was finished, there is the sarati
project in which at least one of us is involved, but at least for now
it's not official (of course, official means we back it up, we're too
few to get burocratic!).
  Angasule

Angasule wrote:

>  I like the quenya mode of the tengwar (with tehtar) best, somehow when
> I see quanta sarme I feel something is lacking, of course that might be
> because I got used to the tehtar (come to think of it, I've been writing
> in the Quenya mode for more than two years)! Also, since I've been
> toying with adaptations to other languages, I noticed that sometimes
> just exchanging the value of two tengwar (specially if one of them isn't
> one of the basic 24) changes the general look quite a bit, I for one
> like the 'a' used in the Moria inscription, that looks like a 'c';

Actually, I think the full modes look more "monumental" than the
tehta-modes, and so are appropriate on some occations, whereas the tehta
modes are in general more "elegant". Having said that, if you want to
write in classical Sindarin the mode of Beleriand is the natural choice.
(Some have called the Sindarin tehta-mode "classical", but our only
sample of this mode comes from early Fourth Age -- Aragorn's letter to
Sam -- at which time the language was hardly "classical"!)


> by the way, I sometimes like calling the cero numeral 'a' (like english
> calling the cero 'o'), since the numeral and the tengwa for 'a' are
> similar (if not the same, I haven't seen the numeral except in Dan
> Smith's fonts), and the 'a' was so common it was often ommited when
> writing with tehtar.

Well, both are crescent-shaped, but the zero is mirrored compared to the
'a'. In our sole example it is also more narrow than the 'a', but that
may be simple graphemic variation.


> > I also confess
> > that I prefer the Tengwar, though the Sarati are admittedly even more
> > "exotic". When we one day get to learn more about the latter I may
> > change my opinion.
>  I know some people are working on the sarati (in fact, I talked with
> one of them less than a minute ago!), I think this person in particular
> is adapting them to write Spanish (since he was wondering about the
> spanish ņ!).

Be sure to report his progress on this list!


> > Do we have any _certandili_ on the list? (I.e. "cirth-lovers".)
>  I do have some interest in the certar, since the tengwar are very hard
> to use on hard materials, but I never got much into them since I don't
> have the book (The Treason of Isengard, right?) that has the tables and

The only tables with Cirth -- as Tolkien finally conceived them -- are
in The Return of the King, appendix E. The tables in _TI_ shows some
earlier sketches on the same system, but they are very dissimilar from
the final result.


> with the tengwar it took me quite a while, and still have some more to
> go (I'm working on an 'elvish library', but I've to get some training in
> the scribal arts first). I see the certar much like the norse the runes,
> for short writings, but not for books, unless there is a cursive form?

Appendix E claims that "Among the Eldar the Alphabet of Daeron did not
develop true cursive forms", but leaves it open if it did among the
Dwarves of Moria. Somewhere (I don't have the reference at hand) it says
that Certhas Daeron was used to record the wars with Morgoth, most
likely in the Grey Annals.


> >        (Amanye Tenceli -- http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c)
>  Good page! We have been going there for most of the sarati questions.
>  What, if any, are the current projects of the Stockholm Tolkien
> Society? (there's no Swedish Tolkien Society as such, is there? They are
> a group of smaller ones? I believe in Chile there is a similar system)

There is no Swedish Tolkien Society, but several regional societies.
Gothenburg has a society called Mithlond, the society of Malmö is called
Angmar, Uppsala has Cerin Erain (actually a fief of the Forodrim) etc.


In haste,
	 Måns


--
Måns Björkman                                             "Mun ūu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III                                        Man ūik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten                                         Un ūu mer!
Sweden                                                         An ūer."

>From: Angasule <angasule@...>

>Mans Bjorkman wrote:

> > Do we have any _certandili_ on the list? (I.e. "cirth-lovers".)

**Yes, I like all the alphabets, including the Runes of Gondolin and the
Goblin Alphabet (from the Father Christmas Letters), though I like the
tengwar best.

>(I'm working on an 'elvish library', but I've to get some training in
>the scribal arts first). I see the certar much like the norse the runes,
>for short writings, but not for books, unless there is a cursive form?

**I'm working on that too!  I have studied bookbinding at the Smithsonian,
and worked for 10 years as a calligrapher, so I have lots of
experience/training.  But I have written in the tengwar and runes since I
was a child--they have always been my favorite calligraphic alphabet, before
I ever learned to write the Roman alphabet in calligraphy.

**There are, by the way, Scandinavian books in (Germanic) runes, and also
specifically cursive forms of the Dwarvish runes, given in the Treason of
Isengard.  I have a small sample on one of my web pages.

** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...
** http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902

_________________________________________________________________________
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>From: Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...>

> > The Treason of Isengard, [snip]

>The only tables with Cirth -- as Tolkien finally conceived them -- are
>in The Return of the King, appendix E. The tables in _TI_ shows some
>earlier sketches on the same system, but they are very dissimilar from
>the final result.

The cirth in the TI are closely connected to the languages given in the
Etymologies, among them, the Ilkorin dialects.  Since I especially like
those languages, I prefer to use the alphabets that Tolkien had in mind for
them.  In any case, I like different modes and variations, as I do for the
European language alphabets which I have also studied.  It's much more fun
to produce the calligraphy when there are lots of choices--and Tolkien
provides lots of alphabets!  I think that no two descriptions or
inscriptions are ever the same which makes it a lot of fun.


** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...
** http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902

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Mans Bjorkman wrote:
>
> Actually, I think the full modes look more "monumental" than the
> tehta-modes, and so are appropriate on some occations, whereas the tehta
> modes are in general more "elegant". Having said that, if you want to
> write in classical Sindarin the mode of Beleriand is the natural choice.
> (Some have called the Sindarin tehta-mode "classical", but our only
> sample of this mode comes from early Fourth Age -- Aragorn's letter to
> Sam -- at which time the language was hardly "classical"!)
  Yes indeed! The mode of Beleriand looks very good, without a doubt!
it's non Tolkien full modes I generally don't like as much as their
tengwar counterparts.

> Well, both are crescent-shaped, but the zero is mirrored compared to the
> 'a'. In our sole example it is also more narrow than the 'a', but that
> may be simple graphemic variation.
  Oh, well, hadn't had a look at neither for a while, anyway, we'll one
day know Tolkien's name for it, hopefully!!

> >  I know some people are working on the sarati (in fact, I talked with
> > one of them less than a minute ago!), I think this person in particular
> > is adapting them to write Spanish (since he was wondering about the
> > spanish ņ!).
>
> Be sure to report his progress on this list!
  I will!

> The only tables with Cirth -- as Tolkien finally conceived them -- are
> in The Return of the King, appendix E. The tables in _TI_ shows some
> earlier sketches on the same system, but they are very dissimilar from
> the final result.
  Ah, I always found it rather confusing there, maybe I should return to
it, I unfortunately lent my copy of The Lord of the Rings (yes, stupid
thing to do, I know!!!), so I'll have to wait.

> Appendix E claims that "Among the Eldar the Alphabet of Daeron did not
> develop true cursive forms", but leaves it open if it did among the
> Dwarves of Moria. Somewhere (I don't have the reference at hand) it says
> that Certhas Daeron was used to record the wars with Morgoth, most
> likely in the Grey Annals.
  Yes, probably the dwarves, then, although I don't recall the book of
Mazarbul as having cursive certar? (I only gave a short look to it, with
orcs and the balrog behind me! [aka store clerks closing down!])

> There is no Swedish Tolkien Society, but several regional societies.
> Gothenburg has a society called Mithlond, the society of Malmö is called
> Angmar, Uppsala has Cerin Erain (actually a fief of the Forodrim) etc.
  I'd be interested in the way they work (statutes and all), I'll look
for them next time I'm online.
  Eru is Lord and Tolkien is his prophet (funny phrase someone said last
weekend :) ).
  Angasule

Actually I'm not from Argentina, but from Brazil. I'm sorry to disappoint
you Angasule, butr after all we are neighbors. that'something, wright?

I just read Tolkien's biography, and only now I understood the complexity of
his work. I know almost nothing about his writings, and probably I'll only
learn in this discussion group. That's why I'm readind The Hobbit again -
and in sequence I'll read The Lord of the Rings - just to remember the
story, because I read it a few years ago and didn't have any contact with it
again.

So forgive me if I can't bring any contribution (yet) to all of you, and I
may say already that I'm sorry for all the questions I'll certainly make, as
well as my huge english mistakes (I haven't practiced for a wile).

Mariana


>From: Angasule <angasule@...>
>Reply-To: elfscript@egroups.com
>To: elfscript@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [elfscript] New Member
>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:58:50 -0300
>
>  Well, I'm not a new member, I've been here for several months (although
>with a few breaks when I didn't have the time), but I've never said
>much. The main thread on this list has been the Unicode proposal, and I
>understand little of that, so I didn't say a thing. My main interest are
>the tengwar, specially the Quenya mode, and lately a few bits of the
>sarati (a friend wanted to know the sarat for spanish ņ, we tried to
>reconstruct it by analogy).
>  By the way, Giacomo, you are from the italian speaking part of
>Switzerland, I guess? And Mariana, you're from a spanish speaking
>country? I'm from Argentina myself :)
>  Giacomo, you say you're learning Quenya, are you in the Quenya and
>Elfling lists? Quenya is a list where messages are written in Quenya
>(with explanations in English), while Elfling is the main email list
>dedicated to the study of Tolkien's languages. To suscribe to them send
>a blank email to quenya-subscribe@egroups.com or
>elfling-subscribe@egroups.com
>  Mariana, if you are from a spanish speaking country I recommend you
>join Lambenor, a list very much like Elfling but in Spanish and with a
>more familiar feel (many of its members know each other in person, being
>part of the spanish Tolkien society). To subscribe send a blank email to
>lambenor-subscribe@egroups.com . If by any chance you're from Argentina,
>please contact me directly, I'm the secretary of the language
>subcomision of the argentinian Tolkien asociation (long title,
>considering there are about five active people on languages in
>Argentina!). My email is angasule@... .
>  Angasule

_________________________________________________________________________
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mariana nascimbem blaser wrote:
>
> Actually I'm not from Argentina, but from Brazil. I'm sorry to disappoint
> you Angasule, butr after all we are neighbors. that'something, wright?
  Yes, it is! Unfortunately I don't know of any other Tolkien reader in
Brazil, since I don't have much contact with brazilians (I don't speak
portuguese at all).

> I just read Tolkien's biography, and only now I understood the complexity of
> his work. I know almost nothing about his writings, and probably I'll only
> learn in this discussion group. That's why I'm readind The Hobbit again -
> and in sequence I'll read The Lord of the Rings - just to remember the
> story, because I read it a few years ago and didn't have any contact with it
> again.
  I'd recommend you read the Silmarillion afterwards, too, since that's
where the languages develop, by the Lord of the Rings elvish languages
are quite stable (I'm talking inside Middle Earth, not in Tolkien's
head!). The Hobbit itself has little language relevance, but it's a
great story (I still grab it from time to time and read a few pages)

> So forgive me if I can't bring any contribution (yet) to all of you, and I
> may say already that I'm sorry for all the questions I'll certainly make, as
> well as my huge english mistakes (I haven't practiced for a wile).
  Don't worry about your English, no one will critize it here! And asking
questions is the best way to learn, so feel free to ask anytime :)
  Angasule

Hello fellow ElfScribes,

Like many, I like to lurk in the shadows and just listen to
the conversations in the list.  I just thought that new people
might be interested in my WWW site, devoted to fonts based on
Tolkien's invented alphabets:
   "http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/index.html"

Also, I whole-heartedly recommend Måns Björkman's WWW site,
which has extensive info on Tolkien-inspired calligraphy.
   "http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c"

Lastly, many thanks to Lisa Star for keeping me on her Tyalie
Tyelellieva mailing list.


--
  Daniel Steven Smith / fontmaster@...
  Fantasy Fonts for Windows / <><
  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/

>Dan Smith <dansmith@...> wrote:

>Hello fellow ElfScribes,
>
>Lastly, many thanks to Lisa Star for keeping me on her Tyalie
>Tyelellieva mailing list.

**yes, you'll be receiving this issue, too, because I used one of your fonts
for something, I think in the article about the copyrighability of alphabets
and fonts!

** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...
** http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902

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Angasule wrote (>) in reply to me (> >):

> > The only tables with Cirth -- as Tolkien finally conceived them -- are
> > in The Return of the King, appendix E. The tables in _TI_ shows some
> > earlier sketches on the same system, but they are very dissimilar from
> > the final result.
>  Ah, I always found it rather confusing there, maybe I should return to
> it, I unfortunately lent my copy of The Lord of the Rings (yes, stupid
> thing to do, I know!!!), so I'll have to wait.

Lisa Star has pointed out that she uses the runes in TI for the
languages in Tolkien's creation that are contemporary with them. That is
fine, of course, and illustrates that one can perceive the subcreation
in two different ways: either as multiple layers of writings from
different periods of Tolkien's life, where each layer is worth studying
in its own right; or as a single, unified body of divergent texts --
where newer texts contradict with older ones, they are usually closer to
the "truth". Both views must be held equally valid, though I confess
myself to the latter.


> > Appendix E claims that "Among the Eldar the Alphabet of Daeron did not
> > develop true cursive forms", but leaves it open if it did among the
> > Dwarves of Moria. Somewhere (I don't have the reference at hand) it says
> > that Certhas Daeron was used to record the wars with Morgoth, most
> > likely in the Grey Annals.

Here is the reference. _The War of the Jewels_, "The Grey Annals" §31:
"Of the long years of peace that followed after the coming of Denethor
there is little tale; for though in this time Dairon the minstrel, it is
said, who was the chief loremaster of the kingdom of Thingol, deviced
his Runes*, [_added later in margin_: Cirth] they were little used by
the Sindar for the keeping of records, until the days of the War [...]"

The footnote reads: "* These, it is said, he contrived first ere the
building of Menegroth, and after bettered them. The Naugrim, indeed,
that came to Thingol learned the Runes of Dairon, and were well-pleased
with the device, esteeming Dairon's skill higher than did the Sindar,
his own folk; and by the Naugrim they [_later_ > the Cirth] were taken
east over the mountains and passed into the knowledge of many peoples."


>  Yes, probably the dwarves, then, although I don't recall the book of
> Mazarbul as having cursive certar? (I only gave a short look to it, with
> orcs and the balrog behind me! [aka store clerks closing down!])

Correct; the Book of Mazarbul contains regular, "straight" runes. The
only "cursive" runes of Tolkien I'm aware of are in the tables in TI, in
fact.

I assume it was _Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien_ you looked in? If so, you
really should get hold of it, since it is no longer in print! (_Artist
and Illustrator_ only contains one of the pages, and a sketch of
another.)


> > There is no Swedish Tolkien Society, but several regional societies.
> > Gothenburg has a society called Mithlond, the society of Malmö is called
> > Angmar, Uppsala has Cerin Erain (actually a fief of the Forodrim) etc.
>  I'd be interested in the way they work (statutes and all), I'll look
> for them next time I'm online.

They all linked from the homepage of the Forodrim
(http://www.forodrim.org), though Cerin Erain has no home page.

The reason for my haste last time was that I was on my way to a
fall-celebration in Mithlond (Gothenburg is a six-hour drive away from
Stockholm). These last four days I have feasted together with people
from all the societies mentioned above, as well as from the Danish
society Bri (danicised form of Bree) and the Norwegian Arthedain. All in
all, about 110 people. It was great fun!


Suilaid an Seryn Tîw a Cirth,
	 Måns


--
Måns Björkman                                             "Mun ūu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III                                        Man ūik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten                                         Un ūu mer!
Sweden                                                         An ūer."

>Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...>  wrote:

>Lisa Star has pointed out that she uses the runes in TI for the
>languages in Tolkien's creation that are contemporary with them. That is
>fine, of course,

**You sound as if you are giving me permission.  That's a little
presumptious of you!

>and illustrates that one can perceive the subcreation
>in two different ways: either as multiple layers of writings from
>different periods of Tolkien's life, where each layer is worth studying
>in its own right; or as a single, unified body of divergent texts --
>where newer texts contradict with older ones, they are usually closer to
>the "truth". Both views must be held equally valid, though I confess
>myself to the latter.

**But neither view is the one that I hold, or am working from.  There are
more views than you know of, obviously.

**The scheme that I use is that Tolkien studied during his lifetime many
texts from many different eras of Middle-earth.  The material in Etymologies
and most of the cirth charts in TI are from the First Age, and so they
accurately reflect the languages and alphabets in use in the First Age.  Of
course they will show differences from the languages and alphabets used in
the much later Third Age.  In addition, Tolkien's understanding of the
material grew the longer he studied it, so later translations and language
studies are more accurate than earlier ones.  That doesn't mean that the
earlier ones need to be discarded--they are the best source we have on
earlier periods in Middle-earth.

**There is the additional problem that even some of the later material is
contradictory or can't be made to fit, so one has to deal with it somehow.
That's part of the fun for me, but I don't think there will ever be--or that
there ever was--one perfect conception of Middle-earth, or specifically its
languages and alphabets, so I don't think it makes sense to argue that there
is one perfect interpretation.

**Of course, I give you permission to do whatever you like, too :-)

** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...
** http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902

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Lisa Star wrote:

> >Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...>  wrote:
>
> >Lisa Star has pointed out that she uses the runes in TI for the
> >languages in Tolkien's creation that are contemporary with them. That is
> >fine, of course,
>
> **You sound as if you are giving me permission.  That's a little
> presumptious of you!

I apologize for causing this misunderstanding. I meant nothing of the
kind! My intention was merely to point out that one can view Tolkien's
material in many different ways (not just two, as you rightly point
out).


> >and illustrates that one can perceive the subcreation
> >in two different ways: either as multiple layers of writings from
> >different periods of Tolkien's life, where each layer is worth studying
> >in its own right; or as a single, unified body of divergent texts --
> >where newer texts contradict with older ones, they are usually closer to
> >the "truth". Both views must be held equally valid, though I confess
> >myself to the latter.
>
> **But neither view is the one that I hold, or am working from.  There are
> more views than you know of, obviously.

Obviously. I have never investigated the views held by all my fellow
Tolkienites (not even the ones I know of).


> **The scheme that I use is that Tolkien studied during his lifetime many
> texts from many different eras of Middle-earth.  The material in Etymologies
> and most of the cirth charts in TI are from the First Age, and so they
> accurately reflect the languages and alphabets in use in the First Age.  Of
> course they will show differences from the languages and alphabets used in
> the much later Third Age.  In addition, Tolkien's understanding of the
> material grew the longer he studied it, so later translations and language
> studies are more accurate than earlier ones.  That doesn't mean that the
> earlier ones need to be discarded--they are the best source we have on
> earlier periods in Middle-earth.

I agree with you that 1) Tolkien's understanding of the texts grew as he
studied them, and 2) the earlier material should not be discarded. I do
*not* agree the Etymologies and the "Appendix on Runes", as they stand,
are more reliable sources on the First Age than later writings,
specifically _The Lord of the Rings_!


> **There is the additional problem that even some of the later material is
> contradictory or can't be made to fit, so one has to deal with it somehow.
> That's part of the fun for me, but I don't think there will ever be--or that
> there ever was--one perfect conception of Middle-earth, or specifically its
> languages and alphabets, so I don't think it makes sense to argue that there
> is one perfect interpretation.

So your view is that there are several equally correct conceptions of
Middle-earth -- divided, perhaps, by the changes that Tolkien made over
time? So that in one conception there are "Ilkorin" elves that use the
"Runes of Beleriand" of AR, in another there are Sindar who use the
Certhas Daeron as described in LR? I think this, in essence, summarizes
the view I so bluntly ascribed to you.

I agree there is no single perfect conception of Arda -- after all,
Tolkien's sources were written during a period of several thousand years
-- but I beleive the later discoveries of the Author to be usually more
accurate than the earlier, thereby superceding them. Sometimes there is
indeed a choice between two late contradictory sources, but never
between one late source and one early. And there's my view in a
nutshell.


> **Of course, I give you permission to do whatever you like, too :-)

Thank you. I hope, then, that I have not insulted you beyond redemption.

Regards,
	 Måns


--
Måns Björkman                                             "Mun ūu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III                                        Man ūik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten                                         Un ūu mer!
Sweden                                                         An ūer."

>Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...>

>Lisa Star wrote:
>
> > >Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...>  wrote:

>I apologize for causing this misunderstanding. I meant nothing of the
>kind! My intention was merely to point out that one can view Tolkien's
>material in many different ways (not just two, as you rightly point
>out).

**My turn to apologize, perhaps I made a hasty assumption.

>Obviously. I have never investigated the views held by all my fellow
>Tolkienites (not even the ones I know of).

**We have communicated in the past about the alphabet samples on my webpage.

>I agree with you that 1) Tolkien's understanding of the texts grew as he
>studied them, and 2) the earlier material should not be discarded. I do
>*not* agree the Etymologies and the "Appendix on Runes", as they stand,
>are more reliable sources on the First Age than later writings,
>specifically _The Lord of the Rings_!

**In my view, it makes sense to say that they are, partly because the forms
of the names change, and Tolkien often retains an earlier form in a later
text--or Christopher Tolkien has.  In what language is the word Neldoreth,
which I believe still appears as a name of a forest of Doriath as the name
is given in the Lord of the Rings?  There are other issues like that, but
that might not be on topic if we are only supposed to be discussing
alphabets on this list.

**I think I will pursue this by producing some samples and putting them up
on my webpage.  That will take a little while, but since I have just
finished a study of the grammar of Qenya (of the Lexicons), I have a lot of
material to work with.

>So your view is that there are several equally correct conceptions of
>Middle-earth -- divided, perhaps, by the changes that Tolkien made over
>time?

**Divided by the different viewpoints in the different sources that he was
using, that is, some manuscripts might have been produced by the Sindar,
some by Mortals and some by Hobbits.  Some might have better texts, others
have copying errors.  Perhaps none of them are perfectly accurate or even
complete.  You study the linguistics also, don't you?  Do you realize how
complex it is?  I'm not being rude in asking that, I just wondered if you
had considered it, or if you had, had you dismissed the complexities?

>So that in one conception there are "Ilkorin" elves that use the
>"Runes of Beleriand" of AR, in another there are Sindar who use the
>Certhas Daeron as described in LR? I think this, in essence, summarizes
>the view I so bluntly ascribed to you.

**No, some *manuscripts* were written in Ilkorin in a cirth hand, others are
later copies made by Noldorin elves in 3rd Age Sindarin and written with the
tengwar.  Tolkien is "translating" manuscripts and hence viewpoints of many
different people.

>I agree there is no single perfect conception of Arda -- after all,
>Tolkien's sources were written during a period of several thousand years
>-- but I believe the later discoveries of the Author to be usually more
>accurate than the earlier, thereby superceding them. Sometimes there is
>indeed a choice between two late contradictory sources, but never
>between one late source and one early. And there's my view in a
>nutshell.

**I think you should look more carefully at this.  In the latest sources
Tolkien rejected the entire cosmology of the Silmarillion including the
making of the Sun and Moon from the fruit and flower of the Two Trees.  Do
you really want to reject all that?  I certainly would not.  Just to be
clear, I'm not objecting to it if you do, but I certainly would not.

> > **Of course, I give you permission to do whatever you like, too :-)
>
>Thank you. I hope, then, that I have not insulted you beyond redemption.

**No, you've made me laugh--always a welcome and healthy experience!

** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...
** http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902

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Lisa Star wrote (>) in reply to me (>>)

> >I agree with you that 1) Tolkien's understanding of the texts grew as he
> >studied them, and 2) the earlier material should not be discarded. I do
> >*not* agree the Etymologies and the "Appendix on Runes", as they stand,
> >are more reliable sources on the First Age than later writings,
> >specifically _The Lord of the Rings_!
>
> **In my view, it makes sense to say that they are, partly because the forms
> of the names change, and Tolkien often retains an earlier form in a later
> text--or Christopher Tolkien has.  In what language is the word Neldoreth,
> which I believe still appears as a name of a forest of Doriath as the name
> is given in the Lord of the Rings?  There are other issues like that, but
> that might not be on topic if we are only supposed to be discussing
> alphabets on this list.

I agree we are probably getting too much off-topic here, and perhaps we
should consider moving this discussion somewhere else. Nevertheless, I
can't resist making a few comments on this subject here and now -- a
very interesting subject, no matter from what perspective you study
Tolkien.

The problem Lisa mentions, I take it, is about elements that survive
from one conception where they are given a plausible explanation, into
another where they have none. I see this as no great issue; our studies
on early history of our primary world poses similar problems. For
instance, what does the word _erilaR_ mean? Fairly common in runic
inscriptions, it was once agreed that "Erilar" is a man's name; but
later findings have made it clear it must be something else. A title? If
so, meaning what? Is there any connection with the Germanic _Heruli_
tribe? We don't know, so we are forced to speculate. In my opinion the
same goes for _Neldoreth_. And that's part of the fun!


> **I think I will pursue this by producing some samples and putting them up
> on my webpage.  That will take a little while, but since I have just
> finished a study of the grammar of Qenya (of the Lexicons), I have a lot of
> material to work with.

I will look forward to seeing them!


> >So your view is that there are several equally correct conceptions of
> >Middle-earth -- divided, perhaps, by the changes that Tolkien made over
> >time?
>
> **Divided by the different viewpoints in the different sources that he was
> using, that is, some manuscripts might have been produced by the Sindar,
> some by Mortals and some by Hobbits.  Some might have better texts, others
> have copying errors.  Perhaps none of them are perfectly accurate or even
> complete.

Thus far, I agree completely with you.


>  You study the linguistics also, don't you?  Do you realize how
> complex it is?  I'm not being rude in asking that, I just wondered if you
> had considered it, or if you had, had you dismissed the complexities?

I think I have a good grasp of its complexity. The various texts are
usually conflicting in some, if not many or all, respects. When it comes
to the linguistics I try to figure out what was Tolkien's latest, or
most plausible, view on the subject (more on this below). Granted,
sometimes that brings me back to the 1910's Qenyaqetsa, when we have no
later source to ask.


> >So that in one conception there are "Ilkorin" elves that use the
> >"Runes of Beleriand" of AR, in another there are Sindar who use the
> >Certhas Daeron as described in LR? I think this, in essence, summarizes
> >the view I so bluntly ascribed to you.
>
> **No, some *manuscripts* were written in Ilkorin in a cirth hand, others are
> later copies made by Noldorin elves in 3rd Age Sindarin and written with the
> tengwar.  Tolkien is "translating" manuscripts and hence viewpoints of many
> different people.

But what cirth did these "Ilkori" use? The "Runes of Beleriand"
described in AR, or the Cirth of LR (note that the word "cirth" is never
used in AR)? Appendix E does describe the usage during the First Age --
not in detail, but enough to make it clear there's a discrepancy with
the description in AR.


> >I agree there is no single perfect conception of Arda -- after all,
> >Tolkien's sources were written during a period of several thousand years
> >-- but I believe the later discoveries of the Author to be usually more
> >accurate than the earlier, thereby superceding them. Sometimes there is
> >indeed a choice between two late contradictory sources, but never
> >between one late source and one early. And there's my view in a
> >nutshell.
>
> **I think you should look more carefully at this.  In the latest sources
> Tolkien rejected the entire cosmology of the Silmarillion including the
> making of the Sun and Moon from the fruit and flower of the Two Trees.  Do
> you really want to reject all that?  I certainly would not.  Just to be
> clear, I'm not objecting to it if you do, but I certainly would not.

I would like to take my view out of the nutshell and elaborate a little
on it. When I study the texts, I (try to) take the *whole* corpus into
consideration, and determine the *credibility* of each manuscript. Where
many sources agree on certain facts, they are probably true. On top on
this I implant my own assumption that Tolkien's later findings are in
general more accurate than the ones he did earlier in his life.

Now, it's clear Tolkien's latest discoveries about the early history of
Arda describe a very different cosmology than the earlier ones. We could
assume these latest texts are also the most accurate, but on the other
hand they contradict most every earlier statement about the nature of
the World, and do not provide very much to fill the gaps. Therefore, I
choose to believe rather the earlier texts.

A parallel case is that of Amrod, Feanor's youngest son. According to a
late source (HMe 12, "The Shibboleth of Feanor"), Amrod was forgotten
onboard the Swan-ships at Drengist and burned with them. Yet in earlier
texts, Amrod has been alive and well until late First Age. On the other
hand, his and his twin brother's personal contributions during the War
of the Jewels appear to have been insignificant, which itself might seem
remarkable with a Son of Feanor. Amrod's anonymosity during the First
Age thus makes me believe he maybe did die at the Ship-burning after
all.


> **No, you've made me laugh--always a welcome and healthy experience!

Be it that I may give you the pleasure again! :)


	 Måns


--
Måns Björkman                                             "Mun ūu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III                                        Man ūik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten                                         Un ūu mer!
Sweden                                                         An ūer."

Test: Pretty Park.exe  :)

    Roman Ukhov

Since I have not tested the program attached to the previous letter,
I
don't know for certain that it's actually a virus. But if Roman Ukhov
has but kind indentions he had better provide more information about
what the program does.

In general, one should never run an unknown program, especially if it
is downloaded from the Internet.

      Måns


--- In elfscript@egroups.com, "Roman Ukhov" <strateg@s...> wrote:
> Test: Pretty Park.exe  :)
>
>    Roman Ukhov

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, [iso-8859-1] Måns Björkman wrote:

> Since I have not tested the program attached to the previous letter,
> I
> don't know for certain that it's actually a virus. But if Roman Ukhov
> has but kind indentions he had better provide more information about
> what the program does.

My virus checker confirms that it is infected.

--
Robert

Yes, it is infected, I tested it


--- Måns Björkman <mansb@...> wrote:
> Since I have not tested the program attached to the
> previous letter,
> I
> don't know for certain that it's actually a virus.
> But if Roman Ukhov
> has but kind indentions he had better provide more
> information about
> what the program does.
>
> In general, one should never run an unknown program,
> especially if it
> is downloaded from the Internet.
>
>      Måns
>
>
> --- In elfscript@egroups.com, "Roman Ukhov"
> <strateg@s...> wrote:
> > Test: Pretty Park.exe  :)
> >
> >    Roman Ukhov
>
>


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