Harri Perälä wrote:
> How English should or should not be written with tengwar is a
> territory I find rather confusing, so I will not make any
> prescriptive comments. However, I can tell you how I think Tolkien
> might have written the word, if it had appeared in some particular
> tengwar inscription.

I agree completely, but I fear that my wordings haven't always been
careful enough in this respect.

> http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/elfscript/thirteen.gif shows the probable
> spelling in two documents:
> - DTS 5 - The Lord of the Rings Title-page Tengwar (Corrected)
> (compare "forth", "seen")

In spite of the attested spelling of <ee> in DTS 5, we might consider
an unattested doubled acute according to the spelling of the word
_too_ found in DTS 10. This presupposes that the spelling of <ee> is
analogical to the spelling of <oo>. Also, the example of _too_ is
problematic since the doubled o-tehta of this word is put on the
preceding tengwa, not on the following like in the rest of the
document. So, we need a second presupposition: that the tengwar-tehtar
order doesn't have any influence on the use of the doubled tehtar for
<oo> (and <ee>).

The benefit of this unattested spelling is that it's according to a
general tendency in tengwar spelling: that syllables have only one
vowel sign.

---------------------------
j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

I have uploaded a revised version based on the information I
recieved, if anyone would like to comment on it please I'd appreciate
it.

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the elfscript
group.

   File        : /thirteen.jpg
   Uploaded by : kravitzgurl13 <kravitzgurl13@...>
   Description : New Thirteen Translation please check it out

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/thirteen.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

kravitzgurl13 <kravitzgurl13@...>

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Ashley Christine Martin"
<kravitzgurl13@y...> wrote:
> I have uploaded a revised version based on the information I
> recieved, if anyone would like to comment on it please I'd
appreciate
> it.

I think you've mixed two styles (modes) together. You've used an I
tehta for transcribing the vowel _i_, which would suppose you're
writing it in a tehta mode but then there is a 'double' yanta (a
tengwa) for a vowel cluster _ee_ which means you're using a full
mode. You should either switch the _i_ to a short carrier or to
transcribe the _ee_ as *short carrier with an accent and numen with
an accent*.

Lucy

Hello dear *tegilboer :)

I've realised that I need to practise Tengwar for English and
obviously the best way how to do it is to try transcribe favorite
poems or songs (as Chris has been doing so far).

So this is my first try. I have to say that the only thing I am sure
of is that it is not correct although I've checked the for-me-
available sources/specimen and tried to be accurate. I marked the
tengwar I'm not sure at all about with blue. I'd be happy for anyone
checks it and draw attention to my mistakes.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/calwen76/oceans.gif

Thanks a bunch, guys.

Lucy

Very few corrections:

'Pearl' - You have it transcribed as 'paerl'. Don't use yanta + triple dots for
'ea'.

'currents' - The 'c' should be written as quesse, not calma.

'we're' - The way you spelt it would be right ordinarily, but since it's
followed immediately by a word with an initial vowel the 'r' should be written
as rómen, not óre.

'allowed' - I'm uneasy about representing a silent 'e' with the acute accent
tehta. Some will undoubtedly disagree with me on this point, but I personally
would use the under-dot below the vala.

'stray', 'away' - 'ay' should be written as anna + triple dots; yanta + triple
dots = 'ae'. Tolkien used yanta + triple dots in the name 'Michael'.

'there' - same thing as with 'we're': it's followed immediately by a word
beginning with a vowel, so use rómen for 'r'.

'please' - Normally I use silme for 's' and silme nuquerna for soft 'c', but
using the triple dot tehta with silme can look awkward, though Tolkien used
silme + triple dots in 'ennas' in the King's Letter III. Your use of silme
nuquerna here is probably a better solution.

Good job!

Cuio mae, Danny.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Lucy,

That's great you're starting challenges as well.  It'd be nice to see
things like this here and there for those who are learning and those
who are practicing.  Keep up the good work!

Chris

On Apr 19, 2004, at 7:14 AM, calwen76 wrote:

> I've realised that I need to practise Tengwar for English and
> obviously the best way how to do it is to try transcribe favorite
> poems or songs (as Chris has been doing so far).

The use of the extended version of ungwe for <gh> in _thoughts, tight_
is not according to Tolkien's use. He represented this letter with
unque. We may speculate that he used the extended tengwar as versions
of the tengwar of the first two tyeller when they're followed by an
<h> but remain pronounced the same, based on the use of extended
quesse in _Christmas, Michael_ in DTS 10 and 62. Based on that
speculation, words like _aghast, ghost_ might be spelt with extended
ungwe (the contrary of Dan Smith's widespread but, unlike his fonts,
not very recommendable suggestion).

Danny wrote:
> Don't use yanta + triple dots for 'ea'.

Instead, you may use stemless calma + e-tehta as in DTS 62. I prefer
this spelling because it fits better to that 'tendency' of having only
one vowel sign per syllable.

> 'we're' - The way you spelt it would be right ordinarily, but since
> it's followed immediately by a word with an initial vowel the 'r'
> should be written as rómen, not óre.

Maybe a spelling with the apostrophe as in traditional spelling would
be better. We have an apostrophe attested in DTS 16 for _in 'er_
(instead of _in her_). However, that sample uses traditional English
punctuation throughout, while the samples of orthographic English
modes don't. Is there any instance of a _don't, isn't, can't_ or
something like this? I don't recall any.

> 'please' - Normally I use silme for 's' and silme nuquerna for soft
> 'c', but using the triple dot tehta with silme can look awkward,
> though Tolkien used silme + triple dots in 'ennas' in the King's
> Letter III. Your use of silme nuquerna here is probably a better
> solution.

I wouldn't use silme nuquerna but silme. Don't computer tengwar fonts
have two kinds of silme just to make sure that tehtar can be put onto
them? Silme nuquerna makes the words _those_ and _please_ look as if
they were spelt _thoce, pleace_.

> Good job!

Definitely!

---------------------------
j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

Lucy wrote:
> I think you've mixed two styles (modes) together. You've used an I
> tehta for transcribing the vowel _i_,

Have another look: It's not an i-tehta, but the i-tengwa. That tengwa
carries a point which doesn't have any meaning in this specific full
writing mode. That transcription is identical to the excellent and
solid transcriptions Harri's suggested.

---------------------------
j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

Hello,

I think I have a rather unusual concern:
I'm a big fan of Fraktur writing (I'm not sure, is this term commonly
used in English?) and developed a Tengwar chart based upon some
digital Black Letter font, which can be viewed here:

http://dombach.florian.bei.t-online.de/grafik/gothica.gif

and that I also used in my recent Gwaith-i-Phethdain contribution:

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/merseburg.htm

Some time ago I tried to convert an earlier attempt into a digital
font, Dan Smith was even so kind to send me his software, but I never
really managed to get on with it, and I don't think I'll find the
time to even try the next months. Still I'd like to include it in my
site (www.mellyn.de.vu), and so I'd just like to give my chart free,
so that everyone that may be interested in this matter can try
his/her best (of course, there could still be included some more
important ligatures I may have forgotten).

Maybe this is just silly, but I'll give it a try :)

Meneg suil,
Florian "Lothenon" Dombach

===========================
We speak as is right, and as King Finwe himself did before he was led
astray. Let them sa-si, if they can speak no better.
===========================

Teithant Mach Hezan:
>Is there any instance of a _don't, isn't, can't_ or something like this? I
don't recall any.

In Brogan Tengwar Greetings we see "... hope you won't find them too
complicated." The Professor spelt _won't_ as vala - tinco + nasal tehta + right
curl. The apostrophe is ignored.

Cuio mae, Danny.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danny wrote:
> In Brogan Tengwar Greetings

Thank you! (and I had it before my eyes...)

Isn't this strange: The modes that follow traditional spelling don't
follow traditional punctuation, but those that follow traditional
punctuation don't follow traditional spelling! :)

j. 'mach' wust

Thanks to all Danny, Mach and Chris who answered to my first crack.
I've edited the picture following your suggestions and corrections.

files/calwen76/oceans_cor.gif

But still, need to revise something:

Mach wrote:
> Don't computer tengwar fonts
> have two kinds of silme just to
> make sure that tehtar can be put onto them?

Yes, I didn't know that, thanks. I used it for _please_ but I don't
like the triple dots over that modified silme – if I want to stay
true to the ‚style` I use (it means having _ea_s written
separatelly). I don't think I could mix both usage: stemless calma+E-
tehta and separate tehtar (the first being above a short carrier, the
second above the following tengwa) - or can I? What do you think?

I'm going to continue in these exercises, enjoying it quite a lot :)

Lucy

machhezan wrote:
> It's not an i-tehta, but the i-tengwa. That tengwa
> carries a point which doesn't have any meaning in this specific full
> writing mode.

What exactly are these tehtar like, the ones placed over short
carriers(*) in the English part of the King's Letter(s)? I'm afraid I
don't have the original sources, but in the "Index of Significant
Samples" transcriptions the tehta varies between a dot and an acute
accent, the accent being more common. Do these two look clearly
different in the manuscript, and is there any reason for the variation?

In any case, my earlier bold statement that the "probable spelling" of
"thirteen" in KL III would have a dot over a short carrier was
apparently much too hasty.

(*) Is there a difference between a short carrier and an "i-tengwa"?

Harri Perälä

> What exactly are these tehtar like, the ones placed over short
> carriers(*) in the English part of the King's Letter(s)? I'm
afraid I
> don't have the original sources, but in the "Index of Significant
> Samples" transcriptions the tehta varies between a dot and an
acute
> accent, the accent being more common. Do these two look clearly
> different in the manuscript, and is there any reason for the
variation?

They are fairly well distinguished. There is no difference in usage
though. I believe the accent is the correct form and the dot merely
occurs where Tolkien may have written a little too fast, or towards
the bottom of the page where the writing becomes considerably
smaller.

> In any case, my earlier bold statement that the "probable
spelling" of
> "thirteen" in KL III would have a dot over a short carrier was
> apparently much too hasty.

Judging by the samples it could have either the accent or the dot.
Though the accent would be better, because as indicated, I think the
dot occurred only due to hasty writing or cramped spaces.

> (*) Is there a difference between a short carrier and an "i-
tengwa"?

I believe what he is calling the "i-tengwa" is the short carrier
with the accent above it.

-Geo.

Teithant Harri Perälä:
   >What exactly are these tehtar like, the ones placed over short
   carriers(*) in
   >the English part of the King's Letter(s)? I'm afraid I
   don't have the
   >original sources, but in the "Index of Significant
   Samples"
   >transcriptions the tehta varies between a dot and an acute
   accent, the accent
   >being more common. Do these two look clearly
   different in the
   >manuscript, and is there any reason for the variation?

   Here are links to view the King's Letter, versions 1 and III:

  
http://my.ort.org.il/tolkien/gandalf2/graph/calli/king1.png<http://my.ortorg.il/\
tolkien/gandalf2/graph/calli/king1.png>

  
http://my.ort.org.il/tolkien/gandalf2/graph/calli/king3.png<http://my.ortorg.il/\
tolkien/gandalf2/graph/calli/king3.png>

   The I tengwa is in the form of the short carrier with an acute accent. The
acute accent is probably just a calligraphic variation of the dot. Tolkien has
used both in English full writing modes, and has also used just the short
carrier with no tehta. There is no difference in the way they are used.
Obviously the acute accent cannot be used to 'dot' the I tengwa in the Sindarin
full writing modes since the acute accent functions as the andaith in these
modes.

   Cuio mae, Danny.








              
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129s7ft41/M=293217.4826175.5971583.1261774/D=groups/S=1\
705218811:HM/EXP=1082552557/A=2092095/R=0/SIG=127ocbvms/*http://www.thenetpanel.\
com?campaign=24FE1EAB04494AC3B21092C99680998Ca>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danny wrote:
> Obviously the acute accent cannot be used to 'dot' the I tengwa in the
> Sindarin full writing modes since the acute accent functions as the
> andaith in these modes.

Neither in the phonetic English full writing modes that also use
andaith. Additionally, the point above the short carrier is obligatory
in these modes, since they eventually distinguish: carrier without
tehta - carrier with point - carrier with andaith.

Note that in this specific mode, DTS 24 and 25, the short and the long
carrier seem to be but variants, the latter used only at the beginning
or at the ending of a word.

---------------------------
       j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

Suil!
I had sent this to the Elfling group-- should have sent it here, though. :-D
~Rodwen~

On April 24, 2004 at 4:57pm -0000, "elimloth" <draco@...> wrote:
Since you are now asking about tengwar issues, this would best be
done in the elfscript group.
-elfling moderator


> Suil!
>
> david teithant:
> >No crafted tounge can do my feelings for you justice. They are,
> >indescrible,
> >as you are to me.
>
> I like it very much! One problem, though... I am planning on
> inscribing the
> sentence onto a nice sword as a gift for my boyfriend... That may
> not fit. ;)
> But you did give me some ideas! I just need to keep working on it,
> I think.
>
> Also, what mode would this be inscribed in? Are there different
> ways to write
> for Quenya and Sindarin? I want to learn how to write in the
> beautiful letters
> that Tolkien created, and I believe there are many modes, (well, I
> have seen
> "Beleriand" and "Gondor"???) but I do not know where to start with
> this.
>
> Hannaid!
> ~Rodwen~

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, morwen_eledhwen@m... wrote:
> Suil!
> I had sent this to the Elfling group-- should have sent it here,
though. :-D
> ~Rodwen~

I want to learn how to write in the
> > beautiful letters
> > that Tolkien created, and I believe there are many modes, (well,
I have seen "Beleriand" and "Gondor"???) but I do not know where to
start with this.

Why don't you start with the Appendix E of the Red Book and then
continue with Elfscript's FAQ? :)

Lucy

calwen76 wrote:
> Why don't you start with the Appendix E of the Red Book and then
> continue with Elfscript's FAQ? :)

I thought we didn't have one?

For learning about Sindarin modes, I'd suggest
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html and
http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/ . And asking questions here, of course...

Harri Perälä

Harri Perälä teithant:
>On April 26, 2004 at 8:26pm +0300, you wrote:
>calwen76 wrote:
>> Why don't you start with the Appendix E of the Red Book and then
>> continue with Elfscript's FAQ? :)

>I thought we didn't have one?
>For learning about Sindarin modes, I'd suggest
>http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html and
>http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/ . And asking questions here, of course...
>Harri Perälä

Many thanks to both of you! I will check it out.
~Rodwen~

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Harri Perälä <harri.perala@l...>
wrote:
> calwen76 wrote:
> > Why don't you start with the Appendix E of the Red Book and then
> > continue with Elfscript's FAQ? :)
>
> I thought we didn't have one?
>
> For learning about Sindarin modes, I'd suggest
> http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html and
> http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/ . And asking questions here, of
course...
>
> Harri Perälä

Hm, right. I should have written the Elfling's FAQ where links to
writing systems pages are given as well. But a month or so ago I
created a page for newcomers with related links of interest:

http://sweb.cz/Calwen.Rudh/Fonts&guides.htm

(Johan, I've updated it, it's okay now. Thanks.)

Lucy

Lucy wrote:
> I've realised that I need to practise Tengwar for English and
> obviously the best way how to do it is to try transcribe favorite
> poems or songs (as Chris has been doing so far).

I've also done something alike and would be happy for comments. It's
based mainly on DTS 39, 41 and 58, and by now I'd make a few things
different, but I hope it's not too bad:

http://machhezan.tripod.com/tengwar_samples/time.jpg

(It's about 131 kb.)

---------------------------
       j. 'mach' wust
http://machhezan.tripod.com
---------------------------

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
> I've also done something alike and would be happy for comments. It's
> based mainly on DTS 39, 41 and 58, and by now I'd make a few things
> different, but I hope it's not too bad:
>
> http://machhezan.tripod.com/tengwar_samples/time.jpg

Very nice calligraphy. I wish I had mine looked better than it is :(
It's strange that my Tengwar hand writing is not nice much since many
people find my latin hand writing very nice :)

Let's go back, it's a spelling like mode example, right? Hm, then I'd
need more time... :)

Thanks!
Lucy

So, I want to get the following words in Elvish and I was directed
to this site for help with seeing if the words are right. They are
potentially for a tattoo, so I obviously want it to be correct.

I used a translation website that gave me what I need to type into
Word using the elvish script fonts.

The first word is "worthy" and this is what I have for the font -
y6Y3`Û. Is this right?

The second word is "grace" and I have this - x7iE`V.

Are these right and if they aren't would someone be able to help me
find the right keys I need to type in order to get the proper
scripting.

Thanks for the help.

I actually just now posted the jpg's up of the two words in the file
section. I don't know if that actually helps with seeing if the
words are correct or not? Anyway, here they are...

Grace =
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QA2QQAlP74znbVVJhLP2XIyk9S6BhVpkC8T-
XJP8ObPQ95jkNXYNBh6WjJ4cYEmXBS9JI7TMf75amEUlSIDLL3q9r-
WKZGbhSfE/grace.JPG

Worthy =
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QA2QQCwXoZ7nbVVJ66_WINsah2DWi1z1YGa0Ljie
26oWpQUZztbKGaoEQ26oMp59_qkEI88uySnn5InD0wdVGbb3nRgszCdmHqk/worthy.JP
G

Thanks again...

Teithant TMarie Bonjour:
> So, I want to get the following words in Elvish and I was directed
> to this site for help with seeing if the words are right. They are
> potentially for a tattoo, so I obviously want it to be correct.
>
> I used a translation website that gave me what I need to type into
> Word using the elvish script fonts.
>
> The first word is "worthy" and this is what I have for the font -
> y6Y3`Û. Is this right?
>
> The second word is "grace" and I have this - x7iE`V.
>
> Are these right and if they aren't would someone be able to help
me
> find the right keys I need to type in order to get the proper
> scripting.
>
That wasn't a 'translation' website; it was a transcriber. The words
you'll have will not be in Elvish, but rather in English written
with tengwar, or Elvish letters. The transcriptions are almost
right.

For 'worthy', it should be y6Y4`Û. The 'th' is voiced, so '4' needs
to be used instead of '3'.

For 'grace', it should be x7IE( . The 'e' it silent, so '9' (the
under dot) should be used instead of `V. The alternate silme
nuquerna (I) looks better with the under dot than the regular one
(i).

Cuio mae, Danny.

Thanks a lot...

Would you be able to help me get the words in Elvish? I would love to reall=
y have it in
Elvish, not just English with elvish font. That would be sweet! I found out=
  that grace is
"erunna" and worthy is "valda".

Cheers

Marie

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "i_degilbor" <Uialdil_i_degilbor@m...> wr=
ote:
> Teithant TMarie Bonjour:
> > So, I want to get the following words in Elvish and I was directed
> > to this site for help with seeing if the words are right. They are
> > potentially for a tattoo, so I obviously want it to be correct.
> >
> > I used a translation website that gave me what I need to type into
> > Word using the elvish script fonts.
> >
> > The first word is "worthy" and this is what I have for the font -
> > y6Y3`Û. Is this right?
> >
> > The second word is "grace" and I have this - x7iE`V.
> >
> > Are these right and if they aren't would someone be able to help
> me
> > find the right keys I need to type in order to get the proper
> > scripting.
> >
> That wasn't a 'translation' website; it was a transcriber. The words
> you'll have will not be in Elvish, but rather in English written
> with tengwar, or Elvish letters. The transcriptions are almost
> right.
>
> For 'worthy', it should be y6Y4`Û. The 'th' is voiced, so '4' needs
> to be used instead of '3'.
>
> For 'grace', it should be x7IE( . The 'e' it silent, so '9' (the
> under dot) should be used instead of `V. The alternate silme
> nuquerna (I) looks better with the under dot than the regular one
> (i).
>
> Cuio mae, Danny.

Teithant Mariebonjour:
> Would you be able to help me get the words in Elvish? I would love
to reall=
> y have it in
> Elvish, not just English with elvish font. That would be sweet! I
found out=
>  that grace is
> "erunna" and worthy is "valda".


'Grace' is _Eruanna_, not _Erunna_. Here are the keystrokes:

_Eruanna_ - `V7U`C5:#

_valda_ -  yEm#

Cuio mae, Danny.

Thanks so much, dude. This helps me out a lot. You're a rocker...

Marie