The following elfscript poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Who is  the best LotR Char?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Frodo, 2 votes, 14.29%
- Legolas, 4 votes, 28.57%
- Gimli, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Aragorn, 3 votes, 21.43%
- Gandalf, 2 votes, 14.29%
- Sam, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Bilbo, 0 votes, 0.00%
- Gollum, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Arwen, 0 votes, 0.00%
- Elrond, 0 votes, 0.00%



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>               As you have all probably noticed I am a newbie. I was
wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a rather
basic Sindarin definite article conjugation problem. If I want to write
"the world" in Sindarin, is "en gardh" correct or is it "i gardh" or am I
completely wrong? Any help would be much appreciated,
>

This is off topic, but...

_En_ is normally taken as the genitival article "of the". The normal
(singular) article "the" is _i_. The normal translation of "world" is
_amar_ (= Quenya _ambar_). This word also has the advantage that it begins
in a vowel, and you don't have to consider any of the complex mutations
initial consonants undergo in Sindarin (the articles do trigger such
mutations). Not that _gardh_ is not a possible translation of "world".

So "the world" = _i amar_. The very first words heard in Peter Jackson's
_Fellowship_ movie, actually.

- HKF

Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
>Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
>in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(

Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who
say they want to become fluent, but they are repeatedly told by others,
including Gildor, that it's not possible. That's not what these lists
are for. But they're also not for someone to bitch and moan about those
of us Tolkien fans who want to use logical conclusions to reconstruct
the gaps in our knowledge of the languages. We study the languages;
assumptions are made.

>ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien's Grammar
>of Sindarin but has Mr Helge's views of his *own*
>Mature Sindarin. "Mature Sindarin" is not Tolkien's
>Sindarin.

Helge's theories about Sindarin are very much based on what clues we
find in Tolkien's own works. He cites examples. Where no attested
example exists, he makes no bones about the fact that his reconstruction
is just theory. Helge is very straightforward about admitting that some
of his and David Salo's reconstructions of the mutations may well be
proved wrong in the light of Tolkien's writings yet to be published. And
if they are wrong, Helge will the first to admit it. However, the
original post that prompted Gildor's reply concerned the g>0 lenition.
That, at least, is well attested in Tolkien's published works as, I'm
sure, you're quite aware. Fluency in Sindarin is not required to point
out a lenition that we have examples of.

>We don't have enough Sindarin text publish so
>far to be able to understand its mutation system.
>Those you say the contaray are _lying_.

Oh, we understand the system pretty well; we just don't know all the
forms. And we disagree about the necessity for Helge's hypothetical
'liquid mutation'. But we have some of Tolkien's own comments about some
of the mutations in his 'Letters', and we can see the mutations at work
in the available Sindarin corpus. Lenition (which follows the Welsh
model pretty closely) and the nasal mutation are not much of a mystery,
thanks to the examples we have. Using the clues provided by JRRT to find
out what he *might* have intended is much like what he did with his
languages: using the primitive Quendian roots to 'discover' the route
that his languages took. I think if Tolkien were alive today, he would
be impressed with the scholarship that has gone into the attempt to
unravel the secrets of Eldarin. We have enough examples of the soft and
nasal mutations to make some reasonable assumptions, and those who claim
to the contrary are _lying_.

Cuio mae, Danny.

Hi Everyone, I'm having a little trouble translating Italian names
and words. The problem is the fact that you often get names with 2
or 3 vowels together and of course virtually all words finish in a
vowel. Do I just use a carrier? even if it's 2 or 3 in a row? Any
help would be appreciated. Thanks J

On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 02:51  PM, jlhmarson
<jlhmarson@...> wrote:

> Hi Everyone, I'm having a little trouble translating Italian names
> and words.

Any language uses tengwar in a way suited to the language. Typically,
that is a manner that follows the phonology of the language. Sometimes,
this is done in a manner that follows an existing orthographic
convention for the language.

The assignment of tengwar to letters or sounds is called a "mode." A
mode will also include conventions on how to use tehtar (the vowel
diacritical marks) and where tehtar get placed (e.g., above either the
preceding or following consonantal tengwa). A mode will also specify
conventions for other diacritical marks (like the underline for a
double-length consonant) and sometimes punctuation, too.

Quenya and Sindarin modes follow the phonology of Quenya and Sindarin
respectively. Since Quenya tends to have a lot of words ending in
vowels and very few beginning in vowels, tehtar are placed above the
preceding consonant. Sindarin is the opposite - words tend to end in
consonants, so a tehta is placed above the following tengwa.

There are many different modes for English. Some follow an orthographic
convention - the tengwar are assigned to letters of the English
alphabet and then normal english spelling is used. Modes like this will
often follow the Mode of Beleriand as an example and assign vowels to
full tengwar, not to tehtar marks.

>  The problem is the fact that you often get names with 2
> or 3 vowels together and of course virtually all words finish in a
> vowel.

Yes, suggesting you'd like to start with a Quenya-like mode.

If you use the TengScribe windows application, there's a mode for
Italian listed on this page:

http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm

Whether you like that mode or not depends on your personal taste.....

>  Do I just use a carrier? even if it's 2 or 3 in a row? Any
> help would be appreciated. Thanks J

If you follow the example of most modes and went with a Quenya-like
mode as a basis, you'd put the first tehta over the preceding
consonant, with subsequent tehta over one or two carriers.

A somewhat less orthodox mode might allow tehtar to be drawn *below* a
tengwa as well as above. If you do this, then a pair of vowels bracket
one tengwa. A triplet of vowels might bracket the tengwa with the first
two vowels while the third might be on a carrier or might be below the
second vowel. Alternatively, at the end of the word you might allow the
third tehta to be placed immediately after the tengwa. Arguably, this
kind of approach is very "Italian" in that it recognizes the frequency
of vowel clusters (ObDisclaimer - I don't speak Italian).

I took this approach in an alternative to Eric Raymond's lojban mode
that I had worked on a while ago. In lojban, words always start with a
consonant and end in a vowel - hence a Quenya-like basis for the mode.
There can be adjacent pairs of vowels, but never adjacent triples -
thus above and below works quite neatly.


Brook
_____________
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.  Not a nasty, dirty, wet
hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry,
bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a
hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

Hi
I hope this doesn't drive everyone crazy- but I have some more basic
questions about "Elvish". I decided to get a tattoo in Elvish, which
is obviously not an origianl idea, but I think it's a good choice for
a tattoo. I want it to be one word: Strength. I figured all I needed
to do is look up the word in Elvish then figure out what the script
would be. That is when I found out about Quenya and Sindarin, etc..
and I realized it would be incredibly complex. I read the
site "Writing with Elvish Fonts" I also read a few other sites. I am
assuming that most of the time the main Characters i.e. Aragorn and
Legolas spoke in Sindarin, while Quenya was for more formal events.
That's what I've gathered. But is the One Ring inscribed in Quenya,
Black Speech or Sindarin? Furthermore, does anyone know the word for
"strength" in Elvish and how can I translate our alphabet of 26
letters into Tengwar? ANY help would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
> Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
> >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
> >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(
>
> Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
> has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR.


When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes : "You can say it like
that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent.

I do not read often (to say the least) things like "I do not know", or
even a simple "maybe"...

Brook Conner teithant:

> A somewhat less orthodox mode might allow tehtar to be drawn
> *below* a tengwa as well as above. If you do this, then a pair of
> vowels bracket one tengwa.

That's attested in the Edwin Lodham's Manuscripts, DTS 50 and 51, and
it's interesting that they don't show the same tengwar-tehtar order.
DTS 50 has: 1st tehta above, 2nd tengwa, 3rd tehta below; DTS 51 has:
1st tengwa, 2nd tehta above, 3rd tehta below. You may call it "less
orthodox", but only because that's a rather unusual mode, not because
it were not attested.

suilaid

teithant "laurifindil <ejk@...>"

> When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes :
> "You can say it like
> that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is
> pretty fluent.
>
> I do not read often (to say the least) things like
> "I do not know", or
> even a simple "maybe"...

apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is
to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider
it possible of course), and not a full analysis of how
and why i picked/made some words..

i' m sure the newbie who asked this translation for a
RPG game or a nickname, is not interested in this..
he/she wants an answer, and it's ok with me and my
conscience that i tried to make a sentence according
to what i know about Elvish, and didn't 'fool' him/her
with some alien words ('reflection' in sindarin? oh i
have it right here, published in my secret personal
dictionary, it's 'gwenniathreg')

i have been numerous times proven wrong, and every
time i give an answer, i also rely on the critical eye
of the other elflingers who correct me

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teithant "neverforreal13 <neverforreal13@...>"

> That's what I've gathered. But is the One Ring
> inscribed in Quenya,
> Black Speech or Sindarin? Furthermore, does anyone

Black Speech, written in tengwar (although it sounds
strange, thing that you can write japanese with roman
letters)

> know the word for
> "strength" in Elvish a

bellas in sindarin
tuo in Quenya

> nd how can I translate our
> alphabet of 26
> letters into Tengwar? ANY help would be much

tengwar is a system based on quenya phonology, then
readapted in sindarin and others..

look http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at about info on
tengwar (mainly quenya)

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Hi
Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. I was able to download
Tengwar script as well so that I can translate the letters.
I guess now I just need to decide whether I want Quenya or Sindarin
for my tattoo.
:-)
J


--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
wrote:
> teithant "neverforreal13 <neverforreal13@y...>"
>
> > That's what I've gathered. But is the One Ring
> > inscribed in Quenya,
> > Black Speech or Sindarin? Furthermore, does anyone
>
> Black Speech, written in tengwar (although it sounds
> strange, thing that you can write japanese with roman
> letters)
>
> > know the word for
> > "strength" in Elvish a
>
> bellas in sindarin
> tuo in Quenya
>
> > nd how can I translate our
> > alphabet of 26
> > letters into Tengwar? ANY help would be much
>
> tengwar is a system based on quenya phonology, then
> readapted in sindarin and others..
>
> look http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at about info on
> tengwar (mainly quenya)
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @yahoo.gr διεύθυνση σας στο http://www.otenet.gr

Another new follower of JRR Tolkien. I have read the Hobbit when I
was young and picked it up again. After seeing both movies, the
Fellowship and Two Towers, I just feel in love with Elvish language.
So, I have a question to ask, is there some sort of dictionary that
has the common tongue and Sindarin, Queyna and english?

Just wondering,
Jade

My fascination with Quenya specifically, has lead me to many sites. I'm
primarily interested in the vocalization and writting so a dictionary would be
helpful. I'm yet to find an 'official'dictionary!
Good luck and when you find it .. please.. link!?!

thanx
~

> My fascination with Quenya specifically, has lead me to many sites. I'm
primarily interested in the vocalization and writting so a dictionary would
be helpful. I'm yet to find an 'official'dictionary!

There is no "official" dictionary out there. Tolkien never produced a
"definite" version of Quenya, much less a complete dictionary to go with
it.

Nonetheless, I have compiled some fairly comprehensive Quenya wordlists
which you can download from here:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm

But these wordlists will tell you nothing about the Tengwar or the other
scripts, which some would insist is the proper topic for this list...

- Helge Fauskanger

Thanks, Helge. *S*

I have one more question to ask, how does one write in either in
Quenam Sindarin in words and not in calligraphy? Is there a website
that tells me or no??

Curious to know..

JadeEdrie


--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
<helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
>
> > My fascination with Quenya specifically, has lead me to many
sites. I'm
> primarily interested in the vocalization and writting so a
dictionary would
> be helpful. I'm yet to find an 'official'dictionary!
>
> There is no "official" dictionary out there. Tolkien never produced
a
> "definite" version of Quenya, much less a complete dictionary to go
with
> it.
>
> Nonetheless, I have compiled some fairly comprehensive Quenya
wordlists
> which you can download from here:
>
> http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm
>
> But these wordlists will tell you nothing about the Tengwar or the
other
> scripts, which some would insist is the proper topic for this
list...
>
> - Helge Fauskanger

teithant "jadeedrie <jadeedrie@...>"

> I have one more question to ask, how does one write
> in either in
> Quenam Sindarin in words and not in calligraphy? Is
> there a website
> that tells me or no??

can you explain the idea behind words vs calligraphy concept?

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I just answered my own question. *S*

Does anyone know is there a dictionary of sorts other than in Quenya
that is in Sardarin? also too, in which language does the Elves in
Rivendell speak? Sindarin right or no??

jadeedrie

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
wrote:
> teithant "jadeedrie <jadeedrie@y...>"
>
> > I have one more question to ask, how does one write
> > in either in
> > Quenam Sindarin in words and not in calligraphy? Is
> > there a website
> > that tells me or no??
>
> can you explain the idea behind words vs calligraphy concept?
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @yahoo.gr διεύθυνση σας στο http://www.otenet.gr

teithant "jadeedrie <jadeedrie@...>"

> Does anyone know is there a dictionary of sorts
> other than in Quenya
> that is in Sardarin? also too, in which language
> does the Elves in
> Rivendell speak? Sindarin right or no??

SINDARIN, and yes, it's the common elvish in Rivendell
(but they speak Quenya sometimes also)

http://www.jrrvf.com/%7Ehisweloke/sindar/documents/download.html
do download a sindarin dictionary

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when you're writing in quenya... when use ore and when use romen???
i said these because almost all material to learn quenya is a
transliteration, but i have a group that is learning the tengwar too
and don't know the difference... can anyone help me??

thanks


naikele nola

teithant "ANA JULIA RODRIGUEZ

> when you're writing in quenya... when use ore and
> when use romen???
> i said these because almost all material to learn
> quenya is a
> transliteration, but i have a group that is learning
> the tengwar too
> and don't know the difference... can anyone help
> me??

ore is used finally (eg valaR) and before consonants
(eg. coRma)

romen is used before vowels (eg. Ranco, aRe etc)

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Thank you so much, elfiness. That really helps me alot. *S*

jadeedrie

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
wrote:
> teithant "jadeedrie <jadeedrie@y...>"
>
> > Does anyone know is there a dictionary of sorts
> > other than in Quenya
> > that is in Sardarin? also too, in which language
> > does the Elves in
> > Rivendell speak? Sindarin right or no??
>
> SINDARIN, and yes, it's the common elvish in Rivendell
> (but they speak Quenya sometimes also)
>
> http://www.jrrvf.com/%7Ehisweloke/sindar/documents/download.html
> do download a sindarin dictionary
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @yahoo.gr διεύθυνση σας στο http://www.otenet.gr

Teithant arnavende
>when you're writing in quenya... when use ore
>and when use romen??? ... i have a group that
>is learning the tengwar too and don't know the
>difference.

Check out Mεns Bjφrkman's article on writing Quenya with the Tengwar
at his site Amanye Tenceli:
http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/teng_quenya.htm

Besides covering the σre vs. rσmen question, it also addresses the
silme vs. sϊle, nϊmen vs. noldo and vala vs. vilya situations.

Cuio mae, Danny.

I know how to put this in the subject.

Anyone done a mode of tengwar not based on a language, but on the
script that the modern or past language used?

Examples:
Tengwar that looks like modern Hebrew.
Sanskrit or like scripts from Southern to SE Asia.

Mike

Some languages are more prone to following vowels..

Example being "The","Be" and like. While some lingos use vowels in
front. Example being "Able", "Although" and like.

One lends it self to "diacritical" (vowel mark) that follows, and can
be artistically pleasing.. As well as functional. both can be fun.
Then you have modes that use full letters versus "diacritical" or like
marks to signify vowels.. The first is much like how Arabic and Hebrew
and related lingos use it. While the third is how English is most
often done.. Really fun when you use Tengwar for a lingo like Arabic,
with the no real need to show vowels other than for new
learners/children.

Of course lingos like Sanskrit that uses a syllybary can be a bit fun
to figure out for Tengwar. Do you use the mode to signify the
syllybles or you do it like English and have one letter for one
consonant, or consonant and vowels?

One ring was done in an ancient pure form of Black Speech, invented by
Morgoth the former Vala named Melkor. And only used by the dark
enemies lieutenants and like, such as the Maia (former) later
named Sauron.


Mike


--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "neverforreal13
<neverforreal13@y...>" <neverforreal13@y...> wrote:
> Hi
> I hope this doesn't drive everyone crazy- but I have some more basic
> questions about "Elvish". I decided to get a tattoo in Elvish, which
> is obviously not an origianl idea, but I think it's a good choice
for
> a tattoo. I want it to be one word: Strength. I figured all I needed
> to do is look up the word in Elvish then figure out what the script
> would be. That is when I found out about Quenya and Sindarin, etc..
> and I realized it would be incredibly complex. I read the
> site "Writing with Elvish Fonts" I also read a few other sites. I am
> assuming that most of the time the main Characters i.e. Aragorn and
> Legolas spoke in Sindarin, while Quenya was for more formal events.
> That's what I've gathered. But is the One Ring inscribed in Quenya,
> Black Speech or Sindarin? Furthermore, does anyone know the word for
> "strength" in Elvish and how can I translate our alphabet of 26
> letters into Tengwar? ANY help would be much appreciated.
> Thanks!

Calligraphy = beautiful writing, sort of a form of hand writing, but
more specifically letters written for artistic purposes, versus
scribed or enscribed. Then their is written, which is your normal hand
writing. And then their is printed, which I think what he is asking
about.. The letters above are all printed.

Sort of the different between someone using a printing press or like
device, versus someone writing out the letters, versus writing the
letters out for beauty.

Can be fun when you add things like carved, as well as illuminated.

Carved, such as carved into stone, while illuminated is more the art
work around the calligraphy letters, but can also be the letters
themselves, Arabic and like calligraphy pushes the boundary, such as
using letters to form animals.

Mike

--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
wrote:
> teithant "jadeedrie <jadeedrie@y...>"
>
> > I have one more question to ask, how does one write
> > in either in
> > Quenam Sindarin in words and not in calligraphy? Is
> > there a website
> > that tells me or no??
>
> can you explain the idea behind words vs calligraphy concept?
>

Hi Everyone,
I have more specific questions regarding the tattoo I want to get
written in Tengwar. First, I want the word to be "strength" however,
not strength meaning physically strong, but meaning emotional
strength, like the strength that Frodo needs to overcome the
temptation of the ring and complete his task. Strength that gets one
out of a hardship. I am not sure if they have a word like that in
Quenya or Sindarin.
My second question is should I get the tattoo in Quenya or Sindarin?
My friend says Quenya because it's the highest form of Elvish. He
thinks it's what Galadriel speaks, is that true?
What would be the better language to get the tattoo in, or does it
matter?
Thirdly, I was wondering about Elvish numbers. Are they the same in
Quenya and Sindarin? I heard the cast from the movie (the 9 actors in
the Fellowship) have the Tengwar numeral 9 somewhere on their bodies.
Thank you all for reading.

Your tatoo is up to you... but i'd shoot for Quenya.
Yes, the cast has the numeral 9 on their ankle. I'm no sure if it's right or
left, but I know it's on their ankle.

Chelle

>What would be the better language to get the tattoo in, or does it
>matter?

This is a very tentative answer and may not be right to this question, but I
believe for that sort of word, in that sense, it would be best to use Quenya
simply for the fact that it seems to have a larger vocabulary.  I have not
studied Sindarin, only observed outer details from the Elfling list, but
have studied Quenya, and it may hold your best hope.  Otherwise, if the word
is in both languages, it does not matter which you choose.  Sindarin is the
vernacular of Middle-Earth Elves, whereas Quenya is the vernacular of Elves
in the Blessed Realm, and is used only ceremonially in Middle-Earth.  As far
as I know, Galadriel only speaks Quenya with Celeborn, not to her people,
because they generally would not understand her.

>Thirdly, I was wondering about Elvish numbers. Are they the same in
>Quenya and Sindarin?

I'm sorry but I do not know if the numerals are different.  I believe the
tengwar would be like, but the pronunciation and actual words would
*probably* be different.  (I don't know Sindarin numerals, sorry).

>I heard the cast from the movie (the 9 actors in
>the Fellowship) have the Tengwar numeral 9 somewhere on their bodies.
>Thank you all for reading.

As far as your question about movie tattoos, the actors got a tattoo on
their ankles.  It was NOT the tengwar numeral for 9, but English written in
a mode of tengwar spelling the word "nine."

Yours Truly,
          John

_________________________________________________________________
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On Monday, February 10, 2003, at 09:54  PM, John C. S. wrote:
>> Thirdly, I was wondering about Elvish numbers. Are they the same in
>> Quenya and Sindarin?
>
> I'm sorry but I do not know if the numerals are different.  I believe
> the
> tengwar would be like,

The tengwar are the same, assuming you're writing the digits, not
spelling out the words.

Like the difference between "5" (the digit), "five" (the word in
English) and "cinco" (the word in Spanish).

>  but the pronunciation and actual words would
> *probably* be different.  (I don't know Sindarin numerals, sorry).

Quenya 9 is nertλ

Sindarin 9 is neder

See http://ardalambion.com/vocab.htm

Counting in Elvish is also a FAQ. See
http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html

Brook
__________
Vootie!

teithant neverforreal13:
>(the 9 actors in
>the Fellowship) have the Tengwar numeral 9 somewhere on their bodies.

--sorry to say, i saw a picture of Sean Astin's tattoo, and it's actually the
english "nine" written out in non-phonetic tengwar. I was really disappointed.



~Aldanende



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