collectivechaosblr : Messages : 2641-2682 of 2803

#2641

From: "V G Baburaj" <vgbaburaj@...>
Date: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:18 am
Subject: Fwd: The Aftermath / Anand Patwardhan

vgbaburaj@...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jenny pinto <pinto.jenny@...>
Date: 2008/12/13
Subject: The Aftermath / Anand Patwardhan
To: pinto.jenny@...

Thanks to Anand for this. His article was rejected by the Times of India and has not been published anywhere yet ... plz circulate

Terror: The Aftermath

The attack on Mumbai is over. After the numbing sorrow comes the blame game and the solutions. Loud voices amplified by saturation TV: Why don't we amend our Constitution to create new anti-terror laws? Why don't we arm our police with AK 47s? Why don't we do what Israel did after Munich or the USA did after 9/11 and hot pursue the enemy? Solutions that will lead us further into the abyss. For terror is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It thrives on reaction, polarization, militarization and the thirst for revenge.

The External Terror
Those who invoke America need only to analyze if its actions after 9/11 increased or decreased global terror. It invaded oil-rich Iraq fully knowing that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, killing over 200,000 Iraqis citizens but allowing a cornered Bin Laden to escape from Afghanistan. It recruited global support for Islamic militancy, which began to be seen as a just resistance against American mass murder. Which begs the question of who created Bin Laden in the first place, armed the madarsas of Pakistan and rejuvenated the concept of Islamic jehad? Israel played its own role in stoking the fires of jehad. The very creation of Israel in 1948 robbed Palestinians of their land, an act that Mahatma Gandhi to his credit deplored at the time as an unjust way to redress the wrongs done to Jews during the Holocaust. What followed has been a slow and continuing attack on the Palestinian nation. At first Palestinian resistance was led by secular forces represented by Yasser Arafat but as these were successfully undermined, Islamic forces took over the mantle. The first, largely non-violent Intifada was crushed, a second more violent one replaced it and when all else failed, human bombs appeared.

Thirty years ago when I first went abroad there were two countries my Indian passport forbade me to visit. One was racist South Africa. The other was Israel. We were non-aligned and stood for disarmament and world peace. Today Israel and America are our biggest military allies. Is it surprising that we are on the jehadi hit list? Israel, America and other prosperous countries can to an extent protect themselves against the determined jehadi, but can India put an impenetrable shield over itself? Remember that when attackers are on a suicide mission, the strongest shields have crumbled. New York was laid low not with nuclear weapons but with a pair of box cutters. India is for many reasons a quintessentially soft target. Our huge population, vast landmass and coastline are impossible to protect. The rich may build new barricades. The Taj and the Oberoi can be made safer. So can our airports and planes. Can our railway stations and trains, bus stops, busses, markets and lanes do the same?

The Terror Within
The threat of terror in India does not come exclusively from the outside. Apart from being hugely populated by the poor India is also a country divided, not just between rich and poor, but by religion, caste and language. This internal divide is as potent a breeding ground for terror as jehadi camps abroad. Nor is jehad the copyright of one religion alone. It can be argued that international causes apart, India has jehadis that are fully home grown. Perhaps the earliest famous one was Nathuram Godse who acting at the behest of his mentor Vinayak Savarkar (still referred to as "Veer" or "brave" although he refused to own up to his role in the conspiracy), murdered Mahatma Gandhi for the crime of championing Muslims.

Jump forward to 6th December, 1992, the day Hindu fanatics demolished the Babri Mosque setting into motion a chain of events that still wreaks havoc today. From the Bombay riots of 1992 to the bomb blasts of 1993, the Gujarat pogroms of 2002 and hundreds of smaller deadly events, the last 16 years have been the bloodiest since Partition. Action has been followed by reaction in an endless cycle of escalating retribution. At the core on the Hindu side of terror are organizations that openly admire Adolph Hitler, nursing the hate of historic wrongs inflicted by Muslims. Ironically these votaries of Hitler remain friends and admirers of Israel.

On the Muslim side of terror are scores of disaffected youth, many of whom have seen their families tortured and killed in more recent pogroms. Christians too have fallen victim to recent Hindutva terror but as yet not formed the mechanisms for revenge. Dalits despite centuries of caste oppression, have not yet retaliated in violence although a small fraction is being drawn into an armed struggle waged by Naxalites.

It is clear that no amount of spending on defense, no amount of patrolling the high seas, no amount of increasing the military and police and equipping them with the latest weaponry can end the cycle of violence or place India under a bubble of safety. Just as nuclear India did not lead to more safety, but only to a nuclear Pakistan, no amount of homeland security can save us. And inviting Israel's Mossad and America's CIA/FBI to the security table is like giving the anti-virus contract to those who spread the virus in the first place. It can only make us more of a target for the next determined jehadi attack.

Policing, Justice and the Media
As for draconian anti-terror laws, they too only breed terror as for the most part they are implemented by a State machinery that has imbibed majoritarian values. So in Modi's Gujarat after the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in 2002, despite scores of confessions to rape and murder captured on hidden camera, virtually no Hindu extremists were punished while thousands of Muslims rotted in jail under draconian laws. The same happened in Bombay despite the Shiv Sena being found guilty by the Justice Shrikrishna Commission. Under pressure a few cases were finally brought to trial but all escaped with the lightest of knuckle raps. In stark contrast many Muslims accused in the 1993 bomb blasts were given death sentences.

The bulk of our media, policing and judicial systems swallows the canard that Muslims are by nature violent. Removing democratic safeguards guaranteed by the Constitution can only make this worse. Every act of wrongful imprisonment and torture that then follows is likely to turn innocents into material for future terrorists to draw upon. Already the double standards are visible. While the Students Islamic Movement of India is banned, Hindutva outfits like the RSS, the VHP, the Bajrang Dal, and the Shiv Sena remain legal entities. The leader of the MNS, Raj Thackeray recently openly spread such hatred that several north Indians were killed by lynch mobs. Amongst these were the Dube brothers, doctors from Kalyan who treated the poor for a grand fee of Rs.10 per patient. Raj Thackeray like his uncle Bal before him, remains free after issuing public threats that Bombay would burn if anyone had the guts to arrest him. Modi remains free despite the pogroms of Gujarat. Congress party murderers of Sikhs in 1984 remain free. Justice in India is clearly not there for all. Increasing the powers of the police cannot solve this problem. Only honest and unbiased implementation of laws that exist, can.

It is a tragedy of the highest proportions that one such honest policeman, Anti-Terrorist Squad chief Hemant Karkare, who had begun to unravel the thread of Hindutva terror was himself gunned down, perhaps by Muslim terror. It is reported that Col. Purohit and fellow Hindutva conspirators now in judicial custody, celebrated the news of Karkare's death. Until Karkare took charge, the Malegaon bomb blasts in which Muslims were killed and the Samjhauta Express blasts in which Pakistani visitors to India were killed were being blamed on Muslims. Karkare exposed a hitherto unknown Hindutva outfit as masterminding a series of killer blasts across the country. For his pains Karkare came under vicious attack not just from militant Hindutva but from the mainstream BJP. He was under tremendous pressure to prove his patriotism. Was it this that led this senior officer to don helmet and ill-fitting bullet proof vest and rush into battle with a pistol? Or was it just his natural instinct, the same courage that had led him against all odds, to expose Hindutva terror?

Whatever it was, it only underlines the fact that jehadis of all kinds are actually allies of each other. So Bin Laden served George Bush and vice-versa. So Islamic and Hindutva jehadis have served each other for years. Do they care who dies? Of the 200 people killed in the last few days by Islamic jehadis, a high number were Muslims. Many were waiting to board trains to celebrate Eid in their hometowns in UP and Bihar, when their co-religionists gunned them down. Shockingly the media has not commented on this, nor focused on the tragedy at the railway station, choosing to concentrate on tragedies that befell the well-to-do. And it is the media that is leading the charge to turn us into a war-mongering police state where we may lead lives with an illusion of safety, but with the certainty of joylessness.

I am not arguing that we do not need efficient security at public places and at vulnerable sites. But real security will only come when it is accompanied by real justice, when the principles of democracy are implemented in every part of the country, when the legitimate grievances of people are not crushed, when the arms race is replaced by a race for decency and humanity, when our children grow up in an atmosphere where religious faith is put to the test of reason. Until such time we will remain at the mercy of "patriots" and zealots.

Anand Patwardhan
November 2008

Reply | Forward

#2642

From: "Nishant Ratnakar" <nishant82@...>
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:24 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: The Aftermath / Anand Patwardhan

nishant82@...

Send Email

"... It is a tragedy of the highest proportions that one such honest policeman, Anti-Terrorist Squad chief Hemant Karkare, who had begun to unravel the thread of Hindutva terror was himself gunned down, PERHAPS by Muslim terror. It is reported that Col. Purohit and fellow Hindutva conspirators now in judicial custody, celebrated the news of Karkare's death. Until Karkare took charge, the Malegaon bomb blasts in which Muslims were killed and the Samjhauta Express blasts in which Pakistani visitors to India were killed were being blamed on Muslims. Karkare exposed a hitherto unknown Hindutva outfit as masterminding a series of killer blasts across the country. For his pains Karkare came under vicious attack not just from militant Hindutva but from the mainstream BJP. He was under tremendous pressure to prove his patriotism. WAS IT THIS THAT LED THIS SENIOR OFFICER TO DON HELMET AND ILL-FITTING BULLET PROOF VEST AND RUSH INTO BATTLE WITH A PISTOL? Or was it just his natural instinct, the same courage that had led him against all odds, to expose Hindutva terror?
..."

It is quite disappointing to read this unpublished article by anand patwardhan. The above paragraph from his article makes him sound no different from any other Indian politician who try to politicise issues. The capitalised words and phrase (to me) tells me only one thing... biased article.. sort of propaganda. The late ATS chief Hemant Karkare died on the call of duty. It looks really cheap to rake up religious sentiments over his sacrifice. And absurd to even question on how/why he went to the terror attack scene and what he carried there...

Irresponsible media, politicians and the writer of this article should think twice before making any public statement via blogs or conventional media. And yeah, being in media for few years now.. I always get thrown this mantra here -> 'we broadcast/publish what target audience want'... If what the present day media shows is not in audiences taste (i agree that most things aren't) then please get proactive and let your newspapers and TV channels know that you don't want watch or read it (please do that.. a request.. only then better content in media can appear)..

Yeah, before any patron of Mr Anan patwardhan comes to conclusion and hit the reply button..... even I don't wish a war in subcontinent... Just that I hate biased articles. Actually, I would use the term opinion for this work by anand rather call it a report or an article.

peace
Nishant

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM, V G Baburaj <vgbaburaj@...> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jenny pinto <pinto.jenny@...>
Date: 2008/12/13
Subject: The Aftermath / Anand Patwardhan
To: pinto.jenny@...

Thanks to Anand for this. His article was rejected by the Times of India and has not been published anywhere yet ... plz circulate

Terror: The Aftermath

The attack on Mumbai is over. After the numbing sorrow comes the blame game and the solutions. Loud voices amplified by saturation TV: Why don't we amend our Constitution to create new anti-terror laws? Why don't we arm our police with AK 47s? Why don't we do what Israel did after Munich or the USA did after 9/11 and hot pursue the enemy? Solutions that will lead us further into the abyss. For terror is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It thrives on reaction, polarization, militarization and the thirst for revenge.

The External Terror
Those who invoke America need only to analyze if its actions after 9/11 increased or decreased global terror. It invaded oil-rich Iraq fully knowing that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, killing over 200,000 Iraqis citizens but allowing a cornered Bin Laden to escape from Afghanistan. It recruited global support for Islamic militancy, which began to be seen as a just resistance against American mass murder. Which begs the question of who created Bin Laden in the first place, armed the madarsas of Pakistan and rejuvenated the concept of Islamic jehad? Israel played its own role in stoking the fires of jehad. The very creation of Israel in 1948 robbed Palestinians of their land, an act that Mahatma Gandhi to his credit deplored at the time as an unjust way to redress the wrongs done to Jews during the Holocaust. What followed has been a slow and continuing attack on the Palestinian nation. At first Palestinian resistance was led by secular forces represented by Yasser Arafat but as these were successfully undermined, Islamic forces took over the mantle. The first, largely non-violent Intifada was crushed, a second more violent one replaced it and when all else failed, human bombs appeared.

Thirty years ago when I first went abroad there were two countries my Indian passport forbade me to visit. One was racist South Africa. The other was Israel. We were non-aligned and stood for disarmament and world peace. Today Israel and America are our biggest military allies. Is it surprising that we are on the jehadi hit list? Israel, America and other prosperous countries can to an extent protect themselves against the determined jehadi, but can India put an impenetrable shield over itself? Remember that when attackers are on a suicide mission, the strongest shields have crumbled. New York was laid low not with nuclear weapons but with a pair of box cutters. India is for many reasons a quintessentially soft target. Our huge population, vast landmass and coastline are impossible to protect. The rich may build new barricades. The Taj and the Oberoi can be made safer. So can our airports and planes. Can our railway stations and trains, bus stops, busses, markets and lanes do the same?

The Terror Within
The threat of terror in India does not come exclusively from the outside. Apart from being hugely populated by the poor India is also a country divided, not just between rich and poor, but by religion, caste and language. This internal divide is as potent a breeding ground for terror as jehadi camps abroad. Nor is jehad the copyright of one religion alone. It can be argued that international causes apart, India has jehadis that are fully home grown. Perhaps the earliest famous one was Nathuram Godse who acting at the behest of his mentor Vinayak Savarkar (still referred to as "Veer" or "brave" although he refused to own up to his role in the conspiracy), murdered Mahatma Gandhi for the crime of championing Muslims.

Jump forward to 6th December, 1992, the day Hindu fanatics demolished the Babri Mosque setting into motion a chain of events that still wreaks havoc today. From the Bombay riots of 1992 to the bomb blasts of 1993, the Gujarat pogroms of 2002 and hundreds of smaller deadly events, the last 16 years have been the bloodiest since Partition. Action has been followed by reaction in an endless cycle of escalating retribution. At the core on the Hindu side of terror are organizations that openly admire Adolph Hitler, nursing the hate of historic wrongs inflicted by Muslims. Ironically these votaries of Hitler remain friends and admirers of Israel.

On the Muslim side of terror are scores of disaffected youth, many of whom have seen their families tortured and killed in more recent pogroms. Christians too have fallen victim to recent Hindutva terror but as yet not formed the mechanisms for revenge. Dalits despite centuries of caste oppression, have not yet retaliated in violence although a small fraction is being drawn into an armed struggle waged by Naxalites.

It is clear that no amount of spending on defense, no amount of patrolling the high seas, no amount of increasing the military and police and equipping them with the latest weaponry can end the cycle of violence or place India under a bubble of safety. Just as nuclear India did not lead to more safety, but only to a nuclear Pakistan, no amount of homeland security can save us. And inviting Israel's Mossad and America's CIA/FBI to the security table is like giving the anti-virus contract to those who spread the virus in the first place. It can only make us more of a target for the next determined jehadi attack.

Policing, Justice and the Media
As for draconian anti-terror laws, they too only breed terror as for the most part they are implemented by a State machinery that has imbibed majoritarian values. So in Modi's Gujarat after the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in 2002, despite scores of confessions to rape and murder captured on hidden camera, virtually no Hindu extremists were punished while thousands of Muslims rotted in jail under draconian laws. The same happened in Bombay despite the Shiv Sena being found guilty by the Justice Shrikrishna Commission. Under pressure a few cases were finally brought to trial but all escaped with the lightest of knuckle raps. In stark contrast many Muslims accused in the 1993 bomb blasts were given death sentences.

The bulk of our media, policing and judicial systems swallows the canard that Muslims are by nature violent. Removing democratic safeguards guaranteed by the Constitution can only make this worse. Every act of wrongful imprisonment and torture that then follows is likely to turn innocents into material for future terrorists to draw upon. Already the double standards are visible. While the Students Islamic Movement of India is banned, Hindutva outfits like the RSS, the VHP, the Bajrang Dal, and the Shiv Sena remain legal entities. The leader of the MNS, Raj Thackeray recently openly spread such hatred that several north Indians were killed by lynch mobs. Amongst these were the Dube brothers, doctors from Kalyan who treated the poor for a grand fee of Rs.10 per patient. Raj Thackeray like his uncle Bal before him, remains free after issuing public threats that Bombay would burn if anyone had the guts to arrest him. Modi remains free despite the pogroms of Gujarat. Congress party murderers of Sikhs in 1984 remain free. Justice in India is clearly not there for all. Increasing the powers of the police cannot solve this problem. Only honest and unbiased implementation of laws that exist, can.

It is a tragedy of the highest proportions that one such honest policeman, Anti-Terrorist Squad chief Hemant Karkare, who had begun to unravel the thread of Hindutva terror was himself gunned down, perhaps by Muslim terror. It is reported that Col. Purohit and fellow Hindutva conspirators now in judicial custody, celebrated the news of Karkare's death. Until Karkare took charge, the Malegaon bomb blasts in which Muslims were killed and the Samjhauta Express blasts in which Pakistani visitors to India were killed were being blamed on Muslims. Karkare exposed a hitherto unknown Hindutva outfit as masterminding a series of killer blasts across the country. For his pains Karkare came under vicious attack not just from militant Hindutva but from the mainstream BJP. He was under tremendous pressure to prove his patriotism. Was it this that led this senior officer to don helmet and ill-fitting bullet proof vest and rush into battle with a pistol? Or was it just his natural instinct, the same courage that had led him against all odds, to expose Hindutva terror?

Whatever it was, it only underlines the fact that jehadis of all kinds are actually allies of each other. So Bin Laden served George Bush and vice-versa. So Islamic and Hindutva jehadis have served each other for years. Do they care who dies? Of the 200 people killed in the last few days by Islamic jehadis, a high number were Muslims. Many were waiting to board trains to celebrate Eid in their hometowns in UP and Bihar, when their co-religionists gunned them down. Shockingly the media has not commented on this, nor focused on the tragedy at the railway station, choosing to concentrate on tragedies that befell the well-to-do. And it is the media that is leading the charge to turn us into a war-mongering police state where we may lead lives with an illusion of safety, but with the certainty of joylessness.

I am not arguing that we do not need efficient security at public places and at vulnerable sites. But real security will only come when it is accompanied by real justice, when the principles of democracy are implemented in every part of the country, when the legitimate grievances of people are not crushed, when the arms race is replaced by a race for decency and humanity, when our children grow up in an atmosphere where religious faith is put to the test of reason. Until such time we will remain at the mercy of "patriots" and zealots.

Anand Patwardhan
November 2008

.

--
Thanks and Regards,
Nishant Ratnakar
Senior Photographer, DNA.
Bangalore.
Portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/travelling_writer
Tel:(080)26484733
Cell:9845312614

Reply | Forward

#2643

From: "thotaka visakhan" <thotaka@...>
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:00 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: The Aftermath / Anand Patwardhan

thotaka@...

Send Email

Hi,

"when our children grow up in an atmosphere where religious faith is put to the test of reason" ->

funniest line I have read in the articles following the 26/11. funniest.

If this were ever to happen, a fatwa would be issued on the article writer. The very word faith keeps itself shielded from the human nature to reason and administering a whole bunch of "truths" to be swallowed. But by the court of law rules,symbols,figures categorized under Hinduism is open to criticism (as has been for thousands of years, since the community has known that that is the only way by which you can really grow).

The article is biased in a sense that it is attacking "Hindutva terror outfits" saying they are reasons for unrest triggered off from a Babri Masjid ( and talks about Israel as being the reason for what is happening in Palestine which is self contradictory. The effort done to analyse the action reaction cycle could have been more whole heartedly done.

apart from all this the article does make a humble effort to changing our laws to make them unbiased. The real change can happen only when every person starts to think he is a part of a larger society and that he takes them to be only next to his immediate family. Unless this does not happen, for one your education has screwed you to be a better placed CONSUMER, two no amount of structural reform is going to affect you because you are shrewd enough to bypass anything.

And our media has definitely contributed towards this. Though a few political reforms followed, the message we take to our heart is that the people around us would come out on streets to fight for a common cause, the spirit of togetherness exists still and has to just to be fanned.

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM, V G Baburaj <vgbaburaj@...> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jenny pinto <pinto.jenny@...>
Date: 2008/12/13
Subject: The Aftermath / Anand Patwardhan
To: pinto.jenny@...

Thanks to Anand for this. His article was rejected by the Times of India and has not been published anywhere yet ... plz circulate

Terror: The Aftermath

The attack on Mumbai is over. After the numbing sorrow comes the blame game and the solutions. Loud voices amplified by saturation TV: Why don't we amend our Constitution to create new anti-terror laws? Why don't we arm our police with AK 47s? Why don't we do what Israel did after Munich or the USA did after 9/11 and hot pursue the enemy? Solutions that will lead us further into the abyss. For terror is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It thrives on reaction, polarization, militarization and the thirst for revenge.

The External Terror
Those who invoke America need only to analyze if its actions after 9/11 increased or decreased global terror. It invaded oil-rich Iraq fully knowing that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, killing over 200,000 Iraqis citizens but allowing a cornered Bin Laden to escape from Afghanistan. It recruited global support for Islamic militancy, which began to be seen as a just resistance against American mass murder. Which begs the question of who created Bin Laden in the first place, armed the madarsas of Pakistan and rejuvenated the concept of Islamic jehad? Israel played its own role in stoking the fires of jehad. The very creation of Israel in 1948 robbed Palestinians of their land, an act that Mahatma Gandhi to his credit deplored at the time as an unjust way to redress the wrongs done to Jews during the Holocaust. What followed has been a slow and continuing attack on the Palestinian nation. At first Palestinian resistance was led by secular forces represented by Yasser Arafat but as these were successfully undermined, Islamic forces took over the mantle. The first, largely non-violent Intifada was crushed, a second more violent one replaced it and when all else failed, human bombs appeared.

Thirty years ago when I first went abroad there were two countries my Indian passport forbade me to visit. One was racist South Africa. The other was Israel. We were non-aligned and stood for disarmament and world peace. Today Israel and America are our biggest military allies. Is it surprising that we are on the jehadi hit list? Israel, America and other prosperous countries can to an extent protect themselves against the determined jehadi, but can India put an impenetrable shield over itself? Remember that when attackers are on a suicide mission, the strongest shields have crumbled. New York was laid low not with nuclear weapons but with a pair of box cutters. India is for many reasons a quintessentially soft target. Our huge population, vast landmass and coastline are impossible to protect. The rich may build new barricades. The Taj and the Oberoi can be made safer. So can our airports and planes. Can our railway stations and trains, bus stops, busses, markets and lanes do the same?

The Terror Within
The threat of terror in India does not come exclusively from the outside. Apart from being hugely populated by the poor India is also a country divided, not just between rich and poor, but by religion, caste and language. This internal divide is as potent a breeding ground for terror as jehadi camps abroad. Nor is jehad the copyright of one religion alone. It can be argued that international causes apart, India has jehadis that are fully home grown. Perhaps the earliest famous one was Nathuram Godse who acting at the behest of his mentor Vinayak Savarkar (still referred to as "Veer" or "brave" although he refused to own up to his role in the conspiracy), murdered Mahatma Gandhi for the crime of championing Muslims.

Jump forward to 6th December, 1992, the day Hindu fanatics demolished the Babri Mosque setting into motion a chain of events that still wreaks havoc today. From the Bombay riots of 1992 to the bomb blasts of 1993, the Gujarat pogroms of 2002 and hundreds of smaller deadly events, the last 16 years have been the bloodiest since Partition. Action has been followed by reaction in an endless cycle of escalating retribution. At the core on the Hindu side of terror are organizations that openly admire Adolph Hitler, nursing the hate of historic wrongs inflicted by Muslims. Ironically these votaries of Hitler remain friends and admirers of Israel.

On the Muslim side of terror are scores of disaffected youth, many of whom have seen their families tortured and killed in more recent pogroms. Christians too have fallen victim to recent Hindutva terror but as yet not formed the mechanisms for revenge. Dalits despite centuries of caste oppression, have not yet retaliated in violence although a small fraction is being drawn into an armed struggle waged by Naxalites.

It is clear that no amount of spending on defense, no amount of patrolling the high seas, no amount of increasing the military and police and equipping them with the latest weaponry can end the cycle of violence or place India under a bubble of safety. Just as nuclear India did not lead to more safety, but only to a nuclear Pakistan, no amount of homeland security can save us. And inviting Israel's Mossad and America's CIA/FBI to the security table is like giving the anti-virus contract to those who spread the virus in the first place. It can only make us more of a target for the next determined jehadi attack.

Policing, Justice and the Media
As for draconian anti-terror laws, they too only breed terror as for the most part they are implemented by a State machinery that has imbibed majoritarian values. So in Modi's Gujarat after the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in 2002, despite scores of confessions to rape and murder captured on hidden camera, virtually no Hindu extremists were punished while thousands of Muslims rotted in jail under draconian laws. The same happened in Bombay despite the Shiv Sena being found guilty by the Justice Shrikrishna Commission. Under pressure a few cases were finally brought to trial but all escaped with the lightest of knuckle raps. In stark contrast many Muslims accused in the 1993 bomb blasts were given death sentences.

The bulk of our media, policing and judicial systems swallows the canard that Muslims are by nature violent. Removing democratic safeguards guaranteed by the Constitution can only make this worse. Every act of wrongful imprisonment and torture that then follows is likely to turn innocents into material for future terrorists to draw upon. Already the double standards are visible. While the Students Islamic Movement of India is banned, Hindutva outfits like the RSS, the VHP, the Bajrang Dal, and the Shiv Sena remain legal entities. The leader of the MNS, Raj Thackeray recently openly spread such hatred that several north Indians were killed by lynch mobs. Amongst these were the Dube brothers, doctors from Kalyan who treated the poor for a grand fee of Rs.10 per patient. Raj Thackeray like his uncle Bal before him, remains free after issuing public threats that Bombay would burn if anyone had the guts to arrest him. Modi remains free despite the pogroms of Gujarat. Congress party murderers of Sikhs in 1984 remain free. Justice in India is clearly not there for all. Increasing the powers of the police cannot solve this problem. Only honest and unbiased implementation of laws that exist, can.

It is a tragedy of the highest proportions that one such honest policeman, Anti-Terrorist Squad chief Hemant Karkare, who had begun to unravel the thread of Hindutva terror was himself gunned down, perhaps by Muslim terror. It is reported that Col. Purohit and fellow Hindutva conspirators now in judicial custody, celebrated the news of Karkare's death. Until Karkare took charge, the Malegaon bomb blasts in which Muslims were killed and the Samjhauta Express blasts in which Pakistani visitors to India were killed were being blamed on Muslims. Karkare exposed a hitherto unknown Hindutva outfit as masterminding a series of killer blasts across the country. For his pains Karkare came under vicious attack not just from militant Hindutva but from the mainstream BJP. He was under tremendous pressure to prove his patriotism. Was it this that led this senior officer to don helmet and ill-fitting bullet proof vest and rush into battle with a pistol? Or was it just his natural instinct, the same courage that had led him against all odds, to expose Hindutva terror?

Whatever it was, it only underlines the fact that jehadis of all kinds are actually allies of each other. So Bin Laden served George Bush and vice-versa. So Islamic and Hindutva jehadis have served each other for years. Do they care who dies? Of the 200 people killed in the last few days by Islamic jehadis, a high number were Muslims. Many were waiting to board trains to celebrate Eid in their hometowns in UP and Bihar, when their co-religionists gunned them down. Shockingly the media has not commented on this, nor focused on the tragedy at the railway station, choosing to concentrate on tragedies that befell the well-to-do. And it is the media that is leading the charge to turn us into a war-mongering police state where we may lead lives with an illusion of safety, but with the certainty of joylessness.

I am not arguing that we do not need efficient security at public places and at vulnerable sites. But real security will only come when it is accompanied by real justice, when the principles of democracy are implemented in every part of the country, when the legitimate grievances of people are not crushed, when the arms race is replaced by a race for decency and humanity, when our children grow up in an atmosphere where religious faith is put to the test of reason. Until such time we will remain at the mercy of "patriots" and zealots.

Anand Patwardhan
November 2008

.

Reply | Forward

#2655

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...>
Date: Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:06 am
Subject: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

manuvilsan@...

Send Email

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.
The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.
But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?
Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it’s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.
The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have ‘unity in diversity’ or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.
If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.
I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,

Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

Reply | Forward

#2656

From: "Dilip R S" <dilip.rs@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2009 6:45 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

localrowdy

Offline

Send Email

I hope I am not stirring a hornet's nest here but on my trip to Kerala last week I noticed a similar issue.

All shops had their boards only in malayalam. Also, I was stuck in thrissur bus stop trying to catch a bus stop to trivandrum and every govt bus which came had only malayalam boards. Now, I think that is a major issue too as it is very inconvenient for someone from outside. But noone is calling keralites fascists.

So let us please be wary of of our words

Regards

Dilip R.S.

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...> wrote:

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it's a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have 'unity in diversity' or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

Reply | Forward

#2657

From: "Arjun Sharma" <supersharma@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2009 6:47 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

supersharma@...

Send Email

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...> wrote:

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

No.

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

What does 'regional farce' mean?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

You must have a lot of free time, then. The questions that haunt me, usually, after a visit to a city are:- why is it so crowded(Bangalore/Bombay)? Why is it so dirty(Pune)? Why is it unfriendly yet nice(Delhi)?

And you have some unfriendly questions, if they hunt you, rather than haunting you.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala.

Kerala offers state citizenships nowadays? That's nice, and sort of illegal.

I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

You haven't been to Tamil Nadu or Maharashtra, then, I presume.

I do share an observation.

You've shared six.

It is regarding the number plates...Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce....

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore...Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others.....

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have 'unity in diversity' or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

Now this is a valid point. Well done, sir. Having just the Kannada alphabet and numerals on the license plate helps miscreants get away with murder, as you've said.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

Problem is, the law enforcing authorities understand Kannada numerals and have no problem, so they assume no one else has a problem either. It's a universal phenomenon. "I don't have a problem, so I don't see why anyone else has to have a problem with it."

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue

Because they have better things to do? Seriously, this close to the Mumbai terror attacks and amidst an economic meltdown, you think anyone would take the number plates issue seriously?

Reply | Forward

#2658

From: "Anurag Sharan" <anuragsh@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

anuragsh@...

Send Email

couldn't agree with you more. While Kannadiga chauvinism is obvious in illegally displaying car registration number plates in Kannada,the police turn a blind eye to this illegality, obviously on instructions from higher ups.It is time to nip excessive display of regional chauvinism in bangalore.C'mon Man, this city has grown from a sleepy one horse town-from the 70's to now ,mainly because of growth created by outsiders-both Indians from other states and foreigners. Lets be grateful .

Anurag

----- Original Message -----

From: Manu Vilsan

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 11:36 AM

Subject: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.
The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.
But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?
Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it’s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.
The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have ‘unity in diversity’ or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.
If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.
I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,

Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

Reply | Forward

#2659

From: "Arjun Sharma" <supersharma@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2009 10:52 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

supersharma@...

Send Email

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Anurag Sharan <anuragsh@...> wrote:

C'mon Man, this city has grown from a sleepy one horse town-from the 70's to now ,mainly because of growth created by outsiders-both Indians from other states and foreigners.

No. It's been created by a concerted effort, of both "outsiders" and "insiders." And Bangalore wasn't a sleepy one-horse town. It was sleepy, yes, but that was because it was nice and calm and didn't have too much traffic and pollution. It's been a pretty industrial city right from the '60s. HAL, NAL, ISRO, DRDO, IISc, everybody's been here for a long time. It's just IT which came in recently.

And gratitude is a two-way street, in this case. The city's allowed people to settle here and go about their lives. No one's gone and beaten up "outsiders," like Raj Thackeray or Karunanidhi have done. So if the city's inhabitants need to be grateful to "other" people, these other people also need to be grateful to the "insiders" as well.

Besides, it's a small inconvenience that can easily be rectified, this number plate issue. Saying things like "I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore" is sensationalisation and just silly.

Reply | Forward

#2660

From: rajshekar patil <rajshekarpatil1@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 7:05 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

rajshekarpatil1

Offline

Send Email

your logic is too self-congratulatory. that's like saying new york should be turned into an international free zone because it has "developed" because of irishmen, jews, chinese, indians and hispanics. and english should cease to be the official language of london because there are more outsiders than englishmen.

the reason so many people come to bangalore or any boom town in the first place, is because it is conducive to outsiders. be it the bangalore climate, the people who are at least accomodating (in case you refuse to consider them friendly) and the government which has not done much but at least opened the boon/can of worms we call the I.T. industry (free land, tax holiday, sops).

no one is doing bangalore or any other city a favour by developing it my friend. on the contrary it is bangalore that has given opportunities to lakhs of IT professionals from around the country to make economic progress. otherwise, all our fellow indians who so happily clog the streets and malls bangalore and go on property shopping sprees, would be chilling out in their respective "sleepy towns" namely cochin, lucknow, patna, chandigarh, rajkot, pune, etc. etc.

it would help your cause if you so called "anti-chauvinists" would do a little travelling around the country and look around. the practise of regional language license plates is a common thing across india (check attached pics). does that make us a nation of chauvinists? perhaps. if all that our self-professed intelligentsia can talk about is license plates.

no city belongs to anyone. that does not mean that everyone who comes in and settles down start pointing fingers at every little issue that offends them. there are far more serious issues that citizens need to be talking and doing things about.

how many developmental issues have you taken up in your home state before you went to bangalore Mr. Manu Vilsan?

please take up issues that will make a real difference in our lives.

From: Anurag Sharan <anuragsh@...>
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 5 January, 2009 12:20:14 PM
Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

couldn't agree with you more. While Kannadiga chauvinism is obvious in illegally displaying car registration number plates in Kannada,the police turn a blind eye to this illegality, obviously on instructions from higher ups.It is time to nip excessive display of regional chauvinism in bangalore.C' mon Man, this city has grown from a sleepy one horse town-from the 70's to now ,mainly because of growth created by outsiders-both Indians from other states and foreigners. Lets be grateful .

Anurag

.

Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Get before others grab.

Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here.

Reply | Forward

#2663

From: abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:46 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

abhyadude@...

Send Email

Manuvilasan

"Unity in diversity" is a classic oxymoron and a bromide created by politicians to glamourize their cause.

In russia all the number plates would be in russian.

In Bangalore if they want to put number plates in Kanada so be it,in a social web ,security comes through trust.I trust that thier will be fractional hit and run cases.

As Indians we are all far too diffrent from each other, whther we are Kannadigas,Tamilians,Marathis or Malyalis.We have to live with this fact that we are all different by culture,religion,customs and try to blend in to a reasonable extent or tolerate these differences.

If it makes sense for you to learn Kanada learn it ,if it does not leave it, there is no complulsion in Namma Bangalore. Bangalorites will happily speak to you in Hindi or English (Perhaps Kanglish-----"swalpa adjust maadi".)

But by observing these isolated facts you are sowing seeds of separatism ,may be you dont mean it but deep in subconscious just by obesrving and taking objection it is evident that its lurking in your psyche somewhere.

But being a Bangalorite I am tolerant and I will not as yet lable you as a potential threat.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...> wrote:

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...>
Subject: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore .

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it�s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have �unity in diversity� or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore , it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

Reply | Forward

#2668

From: Rahul <rahulnr@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 7:20 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

read_n_ryte

Offline

Send Email

Friends, license plates in regional languages is just a symptom of a much larger malaise.

Is it just me or is India really descending from a pluralist state to one that is becoming increasingly factionalised and parochial. It is easy to blame politicians here, but I believe that politicians are just using this diversive strategy to create vote bases and increase jingoistic tendencies. Cause I see educated people around me voicing concerns that illuminate their narrow minded focus and illiteracy that actually exists among the 'so called' thinking intelligentsia. Don't blame politics or politicians friends...they are but 'Frankenstein's monsters'. Voicing concerns is one thing...but acting on it to create a difference is of paramount importance.

India as a country I think is getting sharply polarized into distinctive religious and castist groups. Politics has descended into widening the differences between religions and is now being used us a vehicle to propogate these differences. We are becoming stridently jingoistic in our outlook. There is no more a common cause...was there ever, except probably during the nascent beginnings of this young country.

Oh...'n with regards to license plates...I believe it is not 'right' to display it in any regional language and it doesn't take away the guilt for Kannadigas to do it just because somebody else across an imaginary line does it in another part of this land. This is not because I am against any regional language..but because I believe in a pluralistic approach which means to live together in a society we need to create certain common meeting grounds wherein language, religion, culture or any other claptraps wont act as an impediment to sustenance of brotherhood or egalitarianism...

Cheers

Rahul

2009/1/6 abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>

Manuvilasan

"Unity in diversity" is a classic oxymoron and a bromide created by politicians to glamourize their cause.

In russia all the number plates would be in russian.

In Bangalore if they want to put number plates in Kanada so be it,in a social web ,security comes through trust.I trust that thier will be fractional hit and run cases.

As Indians we are all far too diffrent from each other, whther we are Kannadigas,Tamilians,Marathis or Malyalis.We have to live with this fact that we are all different by culture,religion,customs and try to blend in to a reasonable extent or tolerate these differences.

If it makes sense for you to learn Kanada learn it ,if it does not leave it, there is no complulsion in Namma Bangalore. Bangalorites will happily speak to you in Hindi or English (Perhaps Kanglish-----"swalpa adjust maadi".)

But by observing these isolated facts you are sowing seeds of separatism ,may be you dont mean it but deep in subconscious just by obesrving and taking objection it is evident that its lurking in your psyche somewhere.

But being a Bangalorite I am tolerant and I will not as yet lable you as a potential threat.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...> wrote:

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...>
Subject: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore .

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it's a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have 'unity in diversity' or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore , it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

--
All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection. So I rate us on the basis of our splendid failure to do the impossible -- William Faulkner

Reply | Forward

#2671

From: abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2009 7:32 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

abhyadude@...

Send Email

Symptom of much larger malaise....?

Then applying the same logic of amplification we can safely say that your mail shows symptoms of Paranoia with shades of Xenophobia.

What you say about politicians might be true and we have a greater responsibility.

But........

Displaying Boards in Kanada is extremely mild symbolism of showing pride in your regional language.

How can you connect that with Jingoism/Chauvinism? Please answer.

Each regional language is distinctive in its own way, has its own literature, poetry, films, what about that?

You can magnify the same logic and say that making films, writing poetry, when you can do the same in English or Hindi is chauvinistic and jingoistic.

I absolutely do not understand the issue here.

Rahuls mail can be applied to Mumbai incidents but it definitely does not apply to Bangalore. If it is directed towards Mumbai and Raj Thakray etc.... then Rahul you are terribly late, much has happened since then.

I think this forum is turning deaf ear to allegations that Bangalore is chauvinistic because some mail writer with bad case of myopia found some number plates/boards in Kanada.

Or am I totally blind in not seeing an issue here? Enlighten me in that case...........

I am not here to provide solutions or to come with a plan to change India to whatever you want.......(Sorry...but I dont have any idea about a peaceful solution that will unite india with one language/one religion/one culture and less pride or no pride in regional languages)

I am ready to live with the differences (Number plates don't...in real sense pose anybody any threat).I accept differences when I travel and when you leave your land you must accept that you are going to have cultural differences. The point is would you be grateful and see the big picture or would you see some isolated incidents and be judgmental?

I just can�t sit here relaxed, without replying when the city that I love and my people from this city are called chauvinist.

We are not!!!! Period.

I suggest Manuvilasan and the people from diffrent states replying to emails should first examin how relatively tolerant they are vis a vis a Kannadiga.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Wed, 1/7/09, Rahul <rahulnr@...> wrote:

From: Rahul <rahulnr@...>
Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 12:50 PM

Friends, license plates in regional languages is just a symptom of a much larger malaise.

Is it just me or is India really descending from a pluralist state to one that is becoming increasingly factionalised and parochial. It is easy to blame politicians here, but I believe that politicians are just using this diversive strategy to create vote bases and increase jingoistic tendencies. Cause I see educated people around me voicing concerns that illuminate their narrow minded focus and illiteracy that actually exists among the 'so called' thinking intelligentsia. Don't blame politics or politicians friends...they are but 'Frankenstein's monsters'. Voicing concerns is one thing...but acting on it to create a difference is of paramount importance.

India as a country I think is getting sharply polarized into distinctive religious and castist groups. Politics has descended into widening the differences between religions and is now being used us a vehicle to propogate these differences. We are becoming stridently jingoistic in our outlook. There is no more a common cause...was there ever, except probably during the nascent beginnings of this young country.

Oh...'n with regards to license plates...I believe it is not 'right' to display it in any regional language and it doesn't take away the guilt for Kannadigas to do it just because somebody else across an imaginary line does it in another part of this land. This is not because I am against any regional language..but because I believe in a pluralistic approach which means to live together in a society we need to create certain common meeting grounds wherein language, religion, culture or any other claptraps wont act as an impediment to sustenance of brotherhood or egalitarianism. ..

Cheers

Rahul

2009/1/6 abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@yahoo. com>

Manuvilasan

"Unity in diversity" is a classic oxymoron and a bromide created by politicians to glamourize their cause.

In russia all the number plates would be in russian.

In Bangalore if they want to put number plates in Kanada so be it,in a social web ,security comes through trust.I trust that thier will be fractional hit and run cases.

As Indians we are all far too diffrent from each other, whther we are Kannadigas,Tamilian s,Marathis or Malyalis.We have to live with this fact that we are all different by culture,religion, customs and try to blend in to a reasonable extent or tolerate these differences.

If it makes sense for you to learn Kanada learn it ,if it does not leave it, there is no complulsion in Namma Bangalore. Bangalorites will happily speak to you in Hindi or English (Perhaps Kanglish---- -"swalpa adjust maadi".)

But by observing these isolated facts you are sowing seeds of separatism ,may be you dont mean it but deep in subconscious just by obesrving and taking objection it is evident that its lurking in your psyche somewhere.

But being a Bangalorite I am tolerant and I will not as yet lable you as a potential threat.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@yahoo. com>
Subject: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore .

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it's a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have 'unity in diversity' or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore , it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

--
All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection. So I rate us on the basis of our splendid failure to do the impossible -- William Faulkner

Reply | Forward

#2676

From: Rahul <rahulnr@...>
Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:06 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

read_n_ryte

Offline

Send Email

Abhijeet,

Nice response...but I guess you missed the point of my mail or I was clearly not as articulate as I had wanted to be.

While, I agree with you that the 'number plate' issue is a very minor indiscretion...it is an indiscretion because number plates serve a purpose, which is why it is mandated that they be written in such a way that is easily decipherable to another person...and people not familiar with the local language will find it difficult to understand it. Also, my response was not meant to be an affront to the Bengalooreans or any other cities/states. It was just an example. I find these kind of minor 'transgressions' everywhere...in every city. I mean I have found people in TN and AP use number plates as a drawing boards...

Also, there are other ways how to show your affinity, pride or love for the local languages.

I believe in pluralism, but that shouldn't be read as I hate vernacular languages and I am against their usage. You are mixing up issues when you bring about vernacular movies, poems etc. Making movies and expressions of art forms that extol the virtues of local culture and traditions is different

As an aside...why do you think the deliberations in High Courts are held in English...it is not certainly because English is superior to any other languages...but then again you may think it is and would want the High Court to conduct its deliberations in Kannada (like I believe the Tamil Nadu govt has been campaigning for)

Abhijeet...you may get angry and allow your blood to curdle when you read what you don't agree with, but if you only look deeper you will understand that...no one is against Bengaluru or Bengalooreans. Someone pointed out something that is wrong...accepting that there is a problem is the first step to looking for a solution...and wouldn't you want a Bengalooru that makes you proud? I agree that all across the country ppl are flouting rules and breaking laws, but that shouldn't make it justifiable. I grew up in Bangalore and I liked the city for what it was...a cosmopolitan city that was as accommodating as the big metros across the country...

Well you can treat my response as a paranoid and xenophobic outburst, but I still believe that within the diverseness of our populace there is still space for pluralism. When somebody criticizes bengalooru, do not look for exceptions in other cities/states.

Peace

Rahul

2009/1/9 abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>

Symptom of much larger malaise....?

Then applying the same logic of amplification we can safely say that your mail shows symptoms of Paranoia with shades of Xenophobia.

What you say about politicians might be true and we have a greater responsibility.

But........

Displaying Boards in Kanada is extremely mild symbolism of showing pride in your regional language.

How can you connect that with Jingoism/Chauvinism? Please answer.

Each regional language is distinctive in its own way, has its own literature, poetry, films, what about that?

You can magnify the same logic and say that making films, writing poetry, when you can do the same in English or Hindi is chauvinistic and jingoistic.

I absolutely do not understand the issue here.

Rahuls mail can be applied to Mumbai incidents but it definitely does not apply to Bangalore. If it is directed towards Mumbai and Raj Thakray etc.... then Rahul you are terribly late, much has happened since then.

I think this forum is turning deaf ear to allegations that Bangalore is chauvinistic because some mail writer with bad case of myopia found some number plates/boards in Kanada.

Or am I totally blind in not seeing an issue here? Enlighten me in that case...........

I am not here to provide solutions or to come with a plan to change India to whatever you want.......(Sorry...but I dont have any idea about a peaceful solution that will unite india with one language/one religion/one culture and less pride or no pride in regional languages)

I am ready to live with the differences (Number plates don't...in real sense pose anybody any threat).I accept differences when I travel and when you leave your land you must accept that you are going to have cultural differences. The point is would you be grateful and see the big picture or would you see some isolated incidents and be judgmental?

I just can't sit here relaxed, without replying when the city that I love and my people from this city are called chauvinist.

We are not!!!! Period.

I suggest Manuvilasan and the people from diffrent states replying to emails should first examin how relatively tolerant they are vis a vis a Kannadiga.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Wed, 1/7/09, Rahul <rahulnr@...> wrote:

From: Rahul <rahulnr@...>
Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 12:50 PM

Friends, license plates in regional languages is just a symptom of a much larger malaise.

Is it just me or is India really descending from a pluralist state to one that is becoming increasingly factionalised and parochial. It is easy to blame politicians here, but I believe that politicians are just using this diversive strategy to create vote bases and increase jingoistic tendencies. Cause I see educated people around me voicing concerns that illuminate their narrow minded focus and illiteracy that actually exists among the 'so called' thinking intelligentsia. Don't blame politics or politicians friends...they are but 'Frankenstein's monsters'. Voicing concerns is one thing...but acting on it to create a difference is of paramount importance.

India as a country I think is getting sharply polarized into distinctive religious and castist groups. Politics has descended into widening the differences between religions and is now being used us a vehicle to propogate these differences. We are becoming stridently jingoistic in our outlook. There is no more a common cause...was there ever, except probably during the nascent beginnings of this young country.

Oh...'n with regards to license plates...I believe it is not 'right' to display it in any regional language and it doesn't take away the guilt for Kannadigas to do it just because somebody else across an imaginary line does it in another part of this land. This is not because I am against any regional language..but because I believe in a pluralistic approach which means to live together in a society we need to create certain common meeting grounds wherein language, religion, culture or any other claptraps wont act as an impediment to sustenance of brotherhood or egalitarianism. ..

Cheers

Rahul

2009/1/6 abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@yahoo. com>

Manuvilasan

"Unity in diversity" is a classic oxymoron and a bromide created by politicians to glamourize their cause.

In russia all the number plates would be in russian.

In Bangalore if they want to put number plates in Kanada so be it,in a social web ,security comes through trust.I trust that thier will be fractional hit and run cases.

As Indians we are all far too diffrent from each other, whther we are Kannadigas,Tamilian s,Marathis or Malyalis.We have to live with this fact that we are all different by culture,religion, customs and try to blend in to a reasonable extent or tolerate these differences.

If it makes sense for you to learn Kanada learn it ,if it does not leave it, there is no complulsion in Namma Bangalore. Bangalorites will happily speak to you in Hindi or English (Perhaps Kanglish---- -"swalpa adjust maadi".)

But by observing these isolated facts you are sowing seeds of separatism ,may be you dont mean it but deep in subconscious just by obesrving and taking objection it is evident that its lurking in your psyche somewhere.

But being a Bangalorite I am tolerant and I will not as yet lable you as a potential threat.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@yahoo. com>
Subject: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore .

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it's a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have 'unity in diversity' or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore , it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

--
All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection. So I rate us on the basis of our splendid failure to do the impossible -- William Faulkner

--
All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection. So I rate us on the basis of our splendid failure to do the impossible -- William Faulkner

Reply | Forward

#2670

From: rajshekar patil <rajshekarpatil1@...>
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2009 7:01 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

rajshekarpatil1

Offline

Send Email

rahul

I agree that we must nurture our pluralist aspirations but that does not mean that we dissolve our diversity in one swoop. homogeniety is not the route towards plularism but acceptance of our diversity. those who raise petty issues like license plates only go to show how we are willing to pursue our own vendettas in the name of being progressive and intelligent, while overlooking bigger issues that affect us in larger ways.

standardising license plates across the country does not mean that we'll instantly be united. as long there are people like supersharma who harbour theories that they come and "develop sleepy towns" and "bring prosperity" with them, there will be people who'll want to differentiate from them. And wear it on their sleeve, or their license plate. why blame politicians for our polarisation when we have common citizens who rake up divisve issues?

the trend seems to be all kind of people come to bangalore and demand that it be a utopia of secularism and pluralism, while in their very home towns or states, they would not bat an eyelid if they witnessed some kind of chauvinistic behaviour, or backwardness.

the bottom line is that bangalore is WAY more tolerant and open than any other city in this country and i think everyone who comes in gets an all round good deal (I'd like to see mr. manu open a malayali mess that serves beef in dadar, bombay, where i live). and seriously mr. manu... do you think that your community is free from chauvinisms??? i'd like you to admit it doesn't, before you start making your perceptive observations about other languages. in our march towards an inclusive society, let;s not forget that charity begins at home.

so dude.. please... enjoy what you have... if you want to create progress, i think there are lots of other places in the country where we can start. kerala, for example.

From: Rahul <rahulnr@...>
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009 12:50:37 PM
Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Friends, license plates in regional languages is just a symptom of a much larger malaise.

Cheers

Rahul

2009/1/6 abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@yahoo. com>

Manuvilasan

"Unity in diversity" is a classic oxymoron and a bromide created by politicians to glamourize their cause.

In russia all the number plates would be in russian.

In Bangalore if they want to put number plates in Kanada so be it,in a social web ,security comes through trust.I trust that thier will be fractional hit and run cases.

As Indians we are all far too diffrent from each other, whther we are Kannadigas,Tamilian s,Marathis or Malyalis.We have to live with this fact that we are all different by culture,religion, customs and try to blend in to a reasonable extent or tolerate these differences.

If it makes sense for you to learn Kanada learn it ,if it does not leave it, there is no complulsion in Namma Bangalore. Bangalorites will happily speak to you in Hindi or English (Perhaps Kanglish---- -"swalpa adjust maadi".)

But by observing these isolated facts you are sowing seeds of separatism ,may be you dont mean it but deep in subconscious just by obesrving and taking objection it is evident that its lurking in your psyche somewhere.

But being a Bangalorite I am tolerant and I will not as yet lable you as a potential threat.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@yahoo. com>
Subject: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore .

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it's a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have 'unity in diversity' or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore , it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

--
All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection. So I rate us on the basis of our splendid failure to do the impossible -- William Faulkner

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

Reply | Forward

#2672

From: "Arjun Sharma" <supersharma@...>
Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:59 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

supersharma@...

Send Email

Rajshekar,

Evidently, sarcasm isn't your strong point (maybe you missed the class when they taught that at school), but I agree with the rest of the stuff you've said. I don't harbour the theories you've accused me of harbouring. I was supporting my hometown of Bangalore, but you've somehow managed to miss that point. Irli, parvagilla. I agree with your points, and also Abhijeet's most recent mail.

Manuvilasan has conveniently disappeared after raking up this 'issue.' Maybe he's having a good laugh.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, rajshekar patil <rajshekarpatil1@...> wrote:

as long there are people like supersharma who harbour theories that they come and "develop sleepy towns" and "bring prosperity" with them, there will be people who'll want to differentiate from them. And wear it on their sleeve, or their license plate. why blame politicians for our polarisation when we have common citizens who rake up divisve issues?

Reply | Forward

#2673

From: amit gupta <amtgpt@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:09 am
Subject: RE: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

amtgpt@...

Send Email

Dear Manu Vilsan,

i am seeing a burst of these type of mails in my mailbox. Initially i thought it was some documentary titled :Fascism or Regionalism. So i ignored the mails. Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.

First let me introduce myself : i am from New Delhi but i am a resident of Bangalore for the last 8/9 years by choice. I had come from Mumbai and had two cars which had Maharashtra no plates till six months back. i had off course paid full road tax 8/9 years back. i had no problem moving around Bangalore or Karnataka, other than the occassional checks by the RTOs. i changed the number plates when i was advised by my friends to change to Karnataka number plates due to prevailing terrorist activities. i agreed.

Let me also tell you my family including my children know very little Kannada, and we have had no problems of discriminations till date. We have a small business in Bangalore, we never had any problems other than some minor regional issues like state government forms and offices having the medium of communication as Kannada. But this is there in every state and more so in Tamil Nadu and your home state Kerala. I travel extensively in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.I also travel a lot in the Middle-East.

Now, i have cetain observations about your mails and mails on this subject:

your mail smacks of Regionalism, which is very typical of people who have a political slant for everything
in my travels abroad and especially in the Middle-East you will always find a Kerala Social Group or a Tamil Sangam which have EXCLUSIVE REGIONAL MEMBERSHIP. It is to be noted that these : Keralites and Tamilians have a dominating presence in Middle-East.

while these groups claim that it is open for all Indians, it very cleverly has ALL SOCIAL FUNCTIONS in TAMIL OR MALYALEE only.
the medium of conversation is always in Tamil or Malyalee, even when Indians from other Regions are present
even when in a mixed regional group this issue of language is brought to the notice of a Tamil or Malyalee, they initially switch to a more cosmopolitan language like English, but soon revert back to Tamil or Malyalee. Later they unashamedly say that we are talking things that we do not want you to know.

Keralities have another problem abroad...and this is to do with Keralite Christians who subtely and later vigourously promote Christianity amongst the non-resident Indian Hindus. This is the most obnoxious part!!!
Keralities in the Middle-East make a clear distinction between an Indian and a Malabari, whenever it suits them (there are many incidents which i can narrate, but that is immaterial).
These non-resident Keralities and Tamilians are utterly clannish and only employ or recommend people from their own region or community.

Dear Manu Vilsan, i can go on and on about what mischief each of the communities do to other Indians. So, please STOP this Regional or Fascist(a very communists lingo!) campaign.

regards

Amit G

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
From: manuvilsan@...
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:46 +0530
Subject: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.
The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.
But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?
Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it�s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.
The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have �unity in diversity� or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.
If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.
I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,

Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

Reply | Forward

#2674

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:42 pm
Subject: RE: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

manuvilsan@...

Send Email

Mr. Amit Gupta,

From a plain reading of your mail I understood 2 things.

1. You are a man, who will ignore things, by without even trying to understand the content.

2. You did not understand the meaning of my mail.

My dear friend,

You said: “Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.”

But I do not know why you said so. If this forum can not be used for the political discussion, then what is the purpose of this forum? I feel so pity of the members of this group, for suffering people like you. In the name of counter attack, you used the space of this forum for your pseudo political agendas.

You attacked Malayalees, based on the assumption that I am a Malayalee. You attacked Christians, based on the assumption that I am a Christian. You attacked Communist based on the assumption that I am a communist. (You attacked the poor Tamilians also, based on your prejudicial logical fallacies.) May god forgive you.

My dear friends,

As Mr. Rjasekhar said, I have not gone anywhere, either conveniently or inconveniently. I was carefully watching the show. Let me say, I am not a Malayalee and I am not a communist and I am not even a Christian.
But I am a Human and where ever there are human issues, I will interfere, though you may not like it..

Two questions I raised in my mail viz. Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone? & Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

The intellects of our group have seen the 2^nd question alone. The same time, they have (deliberately) discarded the 1^st question.

Why?

Most of the Kannada hudugaru vehemently argued for showing their spirit of regionalism. But you remember that, I never asked a question as “IS KARNATAKA FOR KANNADIGAS ALONE?” My quest was regarding Bangalore, which is a metro city. It is certainly a free zone, Mr. Rajeshwar Patil. Not only Bangalore, but all metro cities have to be treated as Free Zone.

None of the Metro Cities are created by the state or localities. But it is the men; irrespective of their region, create it, like how a blacksmith create a goddess from the stone. But when the stone become goddess, the priestly classes claim it, as their birth right and mercilessly oust the poor blacksmith from the scene.

My dear friends,

I have respectfully perused your responses and I am glad because your language, corroborate my thoughts.

When the metro cities are formed, the regionalism come forward with a slogan as “MUMBAI for Maratis”, “Bangalore for Kannadigas”, “Chennai for Tamilians”, etc. Some of you had send Marati/Bengali number plates. I am happy. It is also a confirmation of my thought.

Mr. Vattal Nagaraj, who openly told non Kannadigas to quit Bangalore, is still active in Bangalore. This is what happened in Mumbai and Chennai. Thakaray and crew are doing the same.

If you are a human, you could have understood that ‘Bangalore’ is a mere symbolic representation of a metro city. Now I am laughing at me for my over expectations.

In fact, what is behind writing the number in a regional language? No laws are permitting the same. Even then, our law enforcing authorities are acting as mere spectators. Why?

I had preferred an application under Right to Information Act enquiring the details of displaying number plates in Kannada language. The reply received is that, it is illegal. Even then, it is common in Bangalore and the elite members like Mr. Amit Gupta had done such an illegality, without any shame. Why?

In Kerala, there is no Vattal Nagaraj or Thakkaray, because, fortunately, there are no metro cities. When Kochi become Bangalore, definitely, one Thackeray/Vattal Nagaraj will put the slogan as “quit Kochi”

According to me, Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai, Calcutta, etc are the metro towns, which are the common space of human beings, who made it. Necessary laws should be enacted to free these Cities from the clutches of state governments.

Mr. Rajeshwar Pattil,

The New York may not be turned into an international free zone, because United States of America is different from India. But, all metro cities of India should be treated so. Because it is not the Karnataka, which made Bangalore, It is not the Maharashtra which made Bombay (Sorry moooombai). Likewise, it is not the Kannadigas, who made Bangalore and it is not the Maratees, who made Mumbai. It is the people and their joint effort makes a metro city. During all these processes, the state is merely witnessing the scene. When the stone becomes goddess, how the blacksmith will be ousted, now you will say that Bangalore is doing a favour to the petty outsiders.

Dear Friends,

Let’s not delve in to the details of my identity. I will be the first person to criticize, if it is happening in Kerala. It is not a plea for patriotism, but sharing of a thought.

Manuvilsan.
--- On Mon, 12/1/09, amit gupta <amtgpt@...> wrote:

From: amit gupta <amtgpt@...>
Subject: RE: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 8:39 AM

Dear Manu Vilsan,

i am seeing a burst of these type of mails in my mailbox. Initially i thought it was some documentary titled :Fascism or Regionalism. So i ignored the mails. Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.

First let me introduce myself : i am from New Delhi but i am a resident of Bangalore for the last 8/9 years by choice. I had come from Mumbai and had two cars which had Maharashtra no plates till six months back. i had off course paid full road tax 8/9 years back. i had no problem moving around Bangalore or Karnataka, other than the occassional checks by the RTOs. i changed the number plates when i was advised by my friends to change to Karnataka number plates due to prevailing terrorist activities. i agreed.

Let me also tell you my family including my children know very little Kannada, and we have had no problems of discriminations till date. We have a small business in Bangalore, we never had any problems other than some minor regional issues like state government forms and offices having the medium of communication as Kannada. But this is there in every state and more so in Tamil Nadu and your home state Kerala. I travel extensively in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.I also travel a lot in the Middle-East.

Now, i have cetain observations about your mails and mails on this subject:

your mail smacks of Regionalism, which is very typical of people who have a political slant for everything

in my travels abroad and especially in the Middle-East you will always find a Kerala Social Group or a Tamil Sangam which have EXCLUSIVE REGIONAL MEMBERSHIP. It is to be noted that these : Keralites and Tamilians have a dominating presence in Middle-East.

while these groups claim that it is open for all Indians, it very cleverly has ALL SOCIAL FUNCTIONS in TAMIL OR MALYALEE only.

the medium of conversation is always in Tamil or Malyalee, even when Indians from other Regions are present

even when in a mixed regional group this issue of language is brought to the notice of a Tamil or Malyalee, they initially switch to a more cosmopolitan language like English, but soon revert back to Tamil or Malyalee. Later they unashamedly say that we are talking things that we do not want you to know.

Keralities have another problem abroad...and this is to do with Keralite Christians who subtely and later vigourously promote Christianity amongst the non-resident Indian Hindus. This is the most obnoxious part!!!

Keralities in the Middle-East make a clear distinction between an Indian and a Malabari, whenever it suits them (there are many incidents which i can narrate, but that is immaterial).

These non-resident Keralities and Tamilians are utterly clannish and only employ or recommend people from their own region or community.

Dear Manu Vilsan, i can go on and on about what mischief each of the communities do to other Indians. So, please STOP this Regional or Fascist(a very communists lingo!) campaign.

regards

Amit G

To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
From: manuvilsan@yahoo. com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:46 +0530
Subject: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical.. But still it’s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality..

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have ‘unity in diversity’ or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

Reply | Forward

#2680

From: abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>
Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:26 am
Subject: RE: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

abhyadude@...

Send Email

Hi Manuvilasan,

Its easy changing stance, isn�t it?

The opening paragraph of your first mail clearly says �Regional approach is utmost at Bangalore�.Utmost!!!!

With what are you comparing?What is your benchmark?

Then you go on and cite the example of number plates which is, technically correct.

I must admit that now, and the points put forward by Rahul so beautifully made me understand the statutory significance of a number plates (Thanks Rahul and no,my blood didn�t ,doesn�t and wouldn�t curdle.Go on!Express yourself!)

Manuvilasan you should carefully use your superlatives and check tonality in all your prose.Especially when you are writing to a large and thinking forums such as CC.

Your first mail drips of some disguised hatred about Bangalore and its people. I felt it and many of the caustic repliers might have sensed it too.

Good research there!You dropped some names like Vatal Nagaraj ,I would not pay much attention to it because in last elections he has lost his deposit.

Obiviously you are not Mr Current affairs.

We know how to control people like Nagraj otherwise he would have got elected and I am sure if I sit in front of my Google or wiki browser I will find out one Kerala politician whose agenda is, if not exactly same but on the same lines as of Mr V Nagaraj.

People like Nagaraj are found distributed in any random collection of masses.You can�t hold it against us.

(Or we will hold Mr Achyutanandh against you)

Yes if he gets elected again I am sure my fellow bangalorites and I will make sure that his activities are under check.

Also your reply came when Amit (again good reply Amit) became upfront about things which are true and thus hit you where it hurts.

What is it that Amit said which made you reply again and failrly quickly? Regional pride? Communal pride?

I don�t think you are a stateless entity/ actor. I do think, you had an agenda when you wrote that mail.

Also ,I am a Kanadiga huduga but I am tolerant when things make sense and when they are put forward nicely.I want harmony and peace with all the communities co existing at Bangalore.If there is something wrong do point out but while doing so don't write agenda/propaganda mails.

Rahul- I agree with most of your points. Thank you for such a nice reply.

Manuvilasan-Please don�t use bad tone and superlatives at wrong places.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...> wrote:

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...>
Subject: RE: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 9:12 PM

Mr. Amit Gupta,
From a plain reading of your mail I understood 2 things.
1.      You are a man, who will ignore things, by without even trying to understand the content.
2.      You did not understand the meaning of my mail.
My dear friend,
You said: �Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.�
But I do not know why you said so. If this forum can not be used for the political discussion, then what is the purpose of this forum? I feel so pity of the members of this group, for suffering people like you. In the name of counter attack, you used the space of this forum for your pseudo political agendas.
You attacked Malayalees, based on the assumption that I am a Malayalee. You attacked Christians, based on the assumption that I am a Christian. You attacked Communist based on the assumption that I am a communist. (You attacked the poor Tamilians also, based on your prejudicial logical fallacies.) May god forgive you.
My dear friends,
As Mr. Rjasekhar said, I have not gone anywhere, either conveniently or inconveniently. I was carefully watching the show. Let me say, I am not a Malayalee and I am not a communist and I am not even a Christian.
But I am a Human and where ever there are human issues, I will interfere, though you may not like it..
Two questions I raised in my mail viz. Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone? & Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?
The intellects of our group have seen the 2^nd question alone. The same time, they have (deliberately) discarded the 1^st question.
Why?
Most of the Kannada hudugaru vehemently argued for showing their spirit of regionalism. But you remember that, I never asked a question as �IS KARNATAKA FOR KANNADIGAS ALONE?� My quest was regarding Bangalore , which is a metro city. It is certainly a free zone, Mr. Rajeshwar Patil. Not only Bangalore , but all metro cities have to be treated as Free Zone.
None of the Metro Cities are created by the state or localities. But it is the men; irrespective of their region, create it, like how a blacksmith create a goddess from the stone. But when the stone become goddess, the priestly classes claim it, as their birth right and mercilessly oust the poor blacksmith from the scene.
My dear friends,
I have respectfully perused your responses and I am glad because your language, corroborate my thoughts.
When the metro cities are formed, the regionalism come forward with a slogan as �MUMBAI for Maratis�, �Bangalore for Kannadigas�, �Chennai for Tamilians�, etc. Some of you had send Marati/Bengali number plates. I am happy. It is also a confirmation of my thought.
Mr. Vattal Nagaraj, who openly told non Kannadigas to quit Bangalore , is still active in Bangalore . This is what happened in Mumbai and Chennai. Thakaray and crew are doing the same.
If you are a human, you could have understood that � Bangalore � is a mere symbolic representation of a metro city. Now I am laughing at me for my over expectations.
In fact, what is behind writing the number in a regional language? No laws are permitting the same. Even then, our law enforcing authorities are acting as mere spectators. Why?
I had preferred an application under Right to Information Act enquiring the details of displaying number plates in Kannada language. The reply received is that, it is illegal. Even then, it is common in Bangalore and the elite members like Mr. Amit Gupta had done such an illegality, without any shame. Why?
In Kerala, there is no Vattal Nagaraj or Thakkaray, because, fortunately, there are no metro cities. When Kochi become Bangalore , definitely, one Thackeray/Vattal Nagaraj   will put the slogan as �quit Kochi �
According to me, Mumbai, Bangalore , Chennai, Calcutta , etc are the metro towns, which are the common space of human beings, who made it. Necessary laws should be enacted to free these Cities from the clutches of state governments.
Mr. Rajeshwar Pattil,
The New York may not be turned into an international free zone, because United States of America is different from India . But, all metro cities of India should be treated so. Because it is not the Karnataka, which made Bangalore , It is not the Maharashtra which made Bombay (Sorry moooombai). Likewise, it is not the Kannadigas, who made Bangalore and it is not the Maratees, who made Mumbai. It is the people and their joint effort makes a metro city. During all these processes, the state is merely witnessing the scene. When the stone becomes goddess, how the blacksmith will be ousted, now you will say that Bangalore is doing a favour to the petty outsiders.
Dear Friends,
Let�s not delve in to the details of my identity. I will be the first person to criticize, if it is happening in Kerala. It is not a plea for patriotism, but sharing of a thought.
Manuvilsan.
--- On Mon, 12/1/09, amit gupta <amtgpt@hotmail. com> wrote:

From: amit gupta <amtgpt@hotmail. com>
Subject: RE: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 8:39 AM

Dear Manu Vilsan,

i am seeing a burst of these type of mails in my mailbox. Initially i thought it was some documentary titled :Fascism or Regionalism. So i ignored the mails. Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.

First let me introduce myself : i am from New Delhi but i am a resident of Bangalore for the last 8/9 years by choice. I had come from Mumbai and had two cars which had Maharashtra no plates till six months back. i had off course paid full road tax 8/9 years back. i had no problem moving around Bangalore or Karnataka, other than the occassional checks by the RTOs. i changed the number plates when i was advised by my friends to change to Karnataka number plates due to prevailing terrorist activities. i agreed.

Let me also tell you my family including my children know very little Kannada, and we have had no problems of discriminations till date. We have a small business in Bangalore, we never had any problems other than some minor regional issues like state government forms and offices having the medium of communication as Kannada. But this is there in every state and more so in Tamil Nadu and your home state Kerala. I travel extensively in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.I also travel a lot in the Middle-East.

Now, i have cetain observations about your mails and mails on this subject:

your mail smacks of Regionalism, which is very typical of people who have a political slant for everything

in my travels abroad and especially in the Middle-East you will always find a Kerala Social Group or a Tamil Sangam which have EXCLUSIVE REGIONAL MEMBERSHIP. It is to be noted that these : Keralites and Tamilians have a dominating presence in Middle-East.

while these groups claim that it is open for all Indians, it very cleverly has ALL SOCIAL FUNCTIONS in TAMIL OR MALYALEE only.

the medium of conversation is always in Tamil or Malyalee, even when Indians from other Regions are present

even when in a mixed regional group this issue of language is brought to the notice of a Tamil or Malyalee, they initially switch to a more cosmopolitan language like English, but soon revert back to Tamil or Malyalee. Later they unashamedly say that we are talking things that we do not want you to know.

Keralities have another problem abroad...and this is to do with Keralite Christians who subtely and later vigourously promote Christianity amongst the non-resident Indian Hindus. This is the most obnoxious part!!!

Keralities in the Middle-East make a clear distinction between an Indian and a Malabari, whenever it suits them (there are many incidents which i can narrate, but that is immaterial).

These non-resident Keralities and Tamilians are utterly clannish and only employ or recommend people from their own region or community.

Dear Manu Vilsan, i can go on and on about what mischief each of the communities do to other Indians. So, please STOP this Regional or Fascist(a very communists lingo!) campaign.

regards

Amit G

To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
From: manuvilsan@yahoo. com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:46 +0530
Subject: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.

The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.

But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?

Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical.. But still it�s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality..

The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have �unity in diversity� or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.

If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.

I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

Reply | Forward

#2681

From: abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>
Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:07 am
Subject: Slumdog,Some questions and Bachchan's comments.

abhyadude@...

Send Email

Hi CC

Scroll down for Mr Bachchan's Comments on SM as posted on Yahoo.

I saw SM few weeks ago.

If not for the name of Danny Boyle this flick is a fast paced Bollywood movie with all the masala in right places...oh yes! with a song sequence at the end.

Mr Boyle was overwhelmed with the "mad, pulsating response" his movie received.Ditto me.

Leaving aside Amitabh's comments (which are childish!!!) about �projecting slums� and �shining India�s underbelly� .......ufff....what he wants to showcase then, Pistol toting Deewar gangster crying for his mother�s love or one of his utterly stupid movies like Mahaan,Shaan...oh God! I am going to leave it at that.

Read on the article and make your own conclusions about Mr Bachchan�s comments .

Slumdog is a good movie ,it is gripping, and the performances are wonderful but, so is Company and so is Sathya (Mr Boyle has reportedly seen them prior to making SM)

I am very happy for the awards and for our very own first GG for AR Rehman who used music of M.I.A. beautifully (Hi all ,Listen to M.I.A. albums -"Arular" as well as "Kala",Cross genre ,hip hop ,dance whatever you want to call it ,Its simply great music with incendiary beats, mad vocals and an all around dance tone with lyrical intelligence.(Statutory Warning :many of the songs have musical potential of becoming long lasting earworms)

At the end of it all, questions..................

Does SM deserve these awards and a GG especially?

Would it have received the same International recognition if it was directed by somebody like Benegal or RGV or Nihalani?

I remember Sush and Ash were hailed as galacticaly beautiful, tad at the same time when Coty,Revlon and big names in cosmetics were entering India

(Now an Akshay Deepika flick is being produced by Warner Brothers. Am I sensing a conspiracy, Clever Marketing Ploy? White man is very good at that!!!)

All said and done I respect reality. Slums are out there and the things that go on there could be stranger than any fact fiction or film.Boyle or Ray hats off to them for showing reality which we would otherwise never know.

Warmest Regards

Abhijeet Dudhagi

...........................................................................

New Delhi, Jan 14 (IANS) Bollywood megastar Amitabh Bachchan has slammed Danny Boyle's Golden Globe award winning underdog drama 'Slumdog Millionaire' for showing India in poor light.

'If 'Slumdog Millionaire' projects India as Third World dirty underbelly developing nation and causes pain and disgust among nationalists and patriots, let it be known that a murky underbelly exists and thrives even in the most developed nations,' Amitabh said in a posting on his blog www.bigb.bigadda.com Wednesday from Paris, France.

'Its just that the 'Slumdog Millioanire' idea authored by an Indian and conceived and cinematically put together by a westerner, gets creative global recognition,' he added.

The 66-year-old also talked about the changing trend in recognition of Indian cinema.

'The commercial escapist world of Indian cinema had vociferously battled for years, on the attention paid and the adulation given to the legendary Satyajit Ray... and not a word of appreciation for the entertaining mass-oriented box office blockbusters that were being churned out from Mumbai.

'Ray portrayed reality. While, the other - escapism, fantasy and incredulous posturing. Unimpressive for Cannes and Berlin and Venice (film festivals),' he explained.

He further wrote: 'But look how rapidly all that is changing. Dedicated TV channels running Hindi cinema on prime timings. Premieres at Leicester Square (referring to 'Chandni Chowk To China'), the home of all Hollywood royalty, thronged by hundreds on the street in cold biting weather.'

Reply | Forward

#2682

From: "V G Baburaj" <vgbaburaj@...>
Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:23 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

vgbaburaj@...

Send Email

I completely agree with Abhijeet on this. At this forum we have debated much more provocative issues without being derogative to any community and culture. I believe in healthy criticism that initiates a debate of the issue. But the tone and manner in which Manuvilsan is doing it is not serving it. Perhaps he has to learn the basics of how to debate with a sensible group!!

-babu

2009/1/15 abhijeet dudhagi <abhyadude@...>

Hi Manuvilasan,

Its easy changing stance, isn't it?

The opening paragraph of your first mail clearly says "Regional approach is utmost at Bangalore".Utmost!!!!

With what are you comparing?What is your benchmark?

Then you go on and cite the example of number plates which is, technically correct.
I must admit that now, and the points put forward by Rahul so beautifully made me understand the statutory significance of a number plates (Thanks Rahul and no,my blood didn't ,doesn't and wouldn't curdle.Go on!Express yourself!)

Manuvilasan you should carefully use your superlatives and check tonality in all your prose.Especially when you are writing to a large and thinking forums such as CC.

Your first mail drips of some disguised hatred about Bangalore and its people. I felt it and many of the caustic repliers might have sensed it too.

Good research there!You dropped some names like Vatal Nagaraj ,I would not pay much attention to it because in last elections he has lost his deposit.

Obiviously you are not Mr Current affairs.

We know how to control people like Nagraj otherwise he would have got elected and I am sure if I sit in front of my Google or wiki browser I will find out one Kerala politician whose agenda is, if not exactly same but on the same lines as of Mr V Nagaraj.

People like Nagaraj are found distributed in any random collection of masses.You can't hold it against us.

(Or we will hold Mr Achyutanandh against you)

Yes if he gets elected again I am sure my fellow bangalorites and I will make sure that his activities are under check.

Also your reply came when Amit (again good reply Amit) became upfront about things which are true and thus hit you where it hurts.

What is it that Amit said which made you reply again and failrly quickly? Regional pride? Communal pride?

I don't think you are a stateless entity/ actor. I do think, you had an agenda when you wrote that mail.

Also ,I am a Kanadiga huduga but I am tolerant when things make sense and when they are put forward nicely.I want harmony and peace with all the communities co existing at Bangalore.If there is something wrong do point out but while doing so don't write agenda/propaganda mails.

Rahul- I agree with most of your points. Thank you for such a nice reply.

Manuvilasan-Please don't use bad tone and superlatives at wrong places.

Warmest Regards
Abhijeet Dudhagi

Reply | Forward

#2675

From: "Anurag Sharan" <anuragsh@...>
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:22 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

anuragsh@...

Send Email

Hi everybody.

would be happier if the debates on this forum got less combative.

Was originally supporting the point that Car licence plates need to be in English(a common link language, tho saying this alone may set off some people), so that when cars travel around to other regions and states, they may be easily identified. This is also the Law, and its time the authorities were told to strictly implement this. They're not doing their job,if they don't.And they need to be told off.

Re: regional affinities and its more extreme version, which I chose to call chauvinism, its perfectly OK for a small town in Kerala or TN or Karnataka, to display stuff in the local language. THAT is not against the Law, and while the lack of comprehension that this entails, may be inconvenient for visitors, for the vast majority its Ok.Ditto for community get togethers in Dubai or Timbuctoo.

The third point was that Bangalore is in many ways unique, as it has always had the seed of cosmopolitan-ness. Few remember that 70 years ago it was smaller than Mysore. It has grown vastly in the last 20- 30 years., because of essentially"outside businesses and foreign capital" Local talent and outside catalysts/capital is the combination.The PSU sof 1970-80s also represents domestic Indian capital . Software/ITEs represents domestic and foreign capital.In the 1900s Calcutta similarly grew tremendously because of foreign capital.There is nothing to be ashamed of these historical facts and it no way detracts from the genius of this City. If its touching a sore nerve for some to be told how Bangalore has changed from a sleepy Cantonment town to a bustling metropolis, all in 20 years, these people need to look inwards and check their inner"chauvinistic quotient'.

Cheers

Anurag

----- Original Message -----

From: amit gupta

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:39 AM

Subject: RE: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Dear Manu Vilsan,

i am seeing a burst of these type of mails in my mailbox. Initially i thought it was some documentary titled :Fascism or Regionalism. So i ignored the mails. Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.

First let me introduce myself : i am from New Delhi but i am a resident of Bangalore for the last 8/9 years by choice. I had come from Mumbai and had two cars which had Maharashtra no plates till six months back. i had off course paid full road tax 8/9 years back. i had no problem moving around Bangalore or Karnataka, other than the occassional checks by the RTOs. i changed the number plates when i was advised by my friends to change to Karnataka number plates due to prevailing terrorist activities. i agreed.

Let me also tell you my family including my children know very little Kannada, and we have had no problems of discriminations till date. We have a small business in Bangalore, we never had any problems other than some minor regional issues like state government forms and offices having the medium of communication as Kannada. But this is there in every state and more so in Tamil Nadu and your home state Kerala. I travel extensively in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.I also travel a lot in the Middle-East.

Now, i have cetain observations about your mails and mails on this subject:

your mail smacks of Regionalism, which is very typical of people who have a political slant for everything
in my travels abroad and especially in the Middle-East you will always find a Kerala Social Group or a Tamil Sangam which have EXCLUSIVE REGIONAL MEMBERSHIP. It is to be noted that these : Keralites and Tamilians have a dominating presence in Middle-East.

while these groups claim that it is open for all Indians, it very cleverly has ALL SOCIAL FUNCTIONS in TAMIL OR MALYALEE only.
the medium of conversation is always in Tamil or Malyalee, even when Indians from other Regions are present
even when in a mixed regional group this issue of language is brought to the notice of a Tamil or Malyalee, they initially switch to a more cosmopolitan language like English, but soon revert back to Tamil or Malyalee. Later they unashamedly say that we are talking things that we do not want you to know.

Keralities have another problem abroad...and this is to do with Keralite Christians who subtely and later vigourously promote Christianity amongst the non-resident Indian Hindus. This is the most obnoxious part!!!
Keralities in the Middle-East make a clear distinction between an Indian and a Malabari, whenever it suits them (there are many incidents which i can narrate, but that is immaterial).
These non-resident Keralities and Tamilians are utterly clannish and only employ or recommend people from their own region or community.

Dear Manu Vilsan, i can go on and on about what mischief each of the communities do to other Indians. So, please STOP this Regional or Fascist(a very communists lingo!) campaign.

regards

Amit G

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
From: manuvilsan@...
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:46 +0530
Subject: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.
The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.
But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?
Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it�s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.
The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have �unity in diversity� or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.
If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.
I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

Reply | Forward

#2677

From: "vijay" <vndd@...>
Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:26 am
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

vndd@...

Send Email

Hi,

I have been following the exchanges in the mailing lot with a lot of interest. And I am afraid this entire debate has been initiated with the purpose of creating mischief. Yes, a degree of parochial chauvinism is present in Karnataka. But then it is present in all the states of India. There are many North Indians who consider all South Indians to be "Madrasis." In Bombay, there was violence against the migrant working population from Bihar and West Bengal. There are countless instances of the majority community ganging up against the minority community in most states of India. It could be the Hindus against the Muslims in Gujarat or the Muslims against the Pandits in Kashmir. These are all symptoms of the same malaise. To single out Karnataka and in particular Bangalore seems to be particularly unfortunate as this is a state which has displayed much more tolerance than many others in the recent past.

Mr. Vilasan obviously likes to play games. According to him, he does not belong to the state and the community attributed to him. So he is this anonymous entity from nowhere who has dropped this mail bomb to get members irritated and angry. He sadly believes this is a political forum and therefore we must stoop down to being the kind of politicians this country has long suffered and who gain support and mileage out of creating fissures and hatred. My request to the members is to avoid falling into this trap and ignore what he has to say. Otherwise, the rest of us would get into this game of vitiating the hygiene of this space and end up saying things that we will rue later.

Cheers,

Vijay

----- Original Message -----

From: Anurag Sharan

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:52 PM

Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Hi everybody.

would be happier if the debates on this forum got less combative.

Was originally supporting the point that Car licence plates need to be in English(a common link language, tho saying this alone may set off some people), so that when cars travel around to other regions and states, they may be easily identified. This is also the Law, and its time the authorities were told to strictly implement this. They're not doing their job,if they don't.And they need to be told off.

Re: regional affinities and its more extreme version, which I chose to call chauvinism, its perfectly OK for a small town in Kerala or TN or Karnataka, to display stuff in the local language. THAT is not against the Law, and while the lack of comprehension that this entails, may be inconvenient for visitors, for the vast majority its Ok.Ditto for community get togethers in Dubai or Timbuctoo.

The third point was that Bangalore is in many ways unique, as it has always had the seed of cosmopolitan-ness. Few remember that 70 years ago it was smaller than Mysore. It has grown vastly in the last 20- 30 years., because of essentially"outside businesses and foreign capital" Local talent and outside catalysts/capital is the combination.The PSU sof 1970-80s also represents domestic Indian capital . Software/ITEs represents domestic and foreign capital.In the 1900s Calcutta similarly grew tremendously because of foreign capital.There is nothing to be ashamed of these historical facts and it no way detracts from the genius of this City. If its touching a sore nerve for some to be told how Bangalore has changed from a sleepy Cantonment town to a bustling metropolis, all in 20 years, these people need to look inwards and check their inner"chauvinistic quotient'.

Cheers

Anurag

----- Original Message -----

From: amit gupta

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:39 AM

Subject: RE: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Dear Manu Vilsan,

i am seeing a burst of these type of mails in my mailbox. Initially i thought it was some documentary titled :Fascism or Regionalism. So i ignored the mails. Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.

First let me introduce myself : i am from New Delhi but i am a resident of Bangalore for the last 8/9 years by choice. I had come from Mumbai and had two cars which had Maharashtra no plates till six months back. i had off course paid full road tax 8/9 years back. i had no problem moving around Bangalore or Karnataka, other than the occassional checks by the RTOs. i changed the number plates when i was advised by my friends to change to Karnataka number plates due to prevailing terrorist activities. i agreed.

Let me also tell you my family including my children know very little Kannada, and we have had no problems of discriminations till date. We have a small business in Bangalore, we never had any problems other than some minor regional issues like state government forms and offices having the medium of communication as Kannada. But this is there in every state and more so in Tamil Nadu and your home state Kerala. I travel extensively in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.I also travel a lot in the Middle-East.

Now, i have cetain observations about your mails and mails on this subject:

your mail smacks of Regionalism, which is very typical of people who have a political slant for everything
in my travels abroad and especially in the Middle-East you will always find a Kerala Social Group or a Tamil Sangam which have EXCLUSIVE REGIONAL MEMBERSHIP. It is to be noted that these : Keralites and Tamilians have a dominating presence in Middle-East.

while these groups claim that it is open for all Indians, it very cleverly has ALL SOCIAL FUNCTIONS in TAMIL OR MALYALEE only.
the medium of conversation is always in Tamil or Malyalee, even when Indians from other Regions are present
even when in a mixed regional group this issue of language is brought to the notice of a Tamil or Malyalee, they initially switch to a more cosmopolitan language like English, but soon revert back to Tamil or Malyalee. Later they unashamedly say that we are talking things that we do not want you to know.

Keralities have another problem abroad...and this is to do with Keralite Christians who subtely and later vigourously promote Christianity amongst the non-resident Indian Hindus. This is the most obnoxious part!!!
Keralities in the Middle-East make a clear distinction between an Indian and a Malabari, whenever it suits them (there are many incidents which i can narrate, but that is immaterial).
These non-resident Keralities and Tamilians are utterly clannish and only employ or recommend people from their own region or community.

Dear Manu Vilsan, i can go on and on about what mischief each of the communities do to other Indians. So, please STOP this Regional or Fascist(a very communists lingo!) campaign.

regards

Amit G

To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
From: manuvilsan@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:46 +0530
Subject: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.
The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.
But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?
Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical. But still it�s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality.
The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have �unity in diversity� or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.
If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.
I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

Reply | Forward

#2679

From: Manu Vilsan <manuvilsan@...>
Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

manuvilsan@...

Send Email

Mr. Vijay,

At last you said it!

“My request to the members is to avoid falling into this trap and ignore what he has to say. Otherwise, the rest of us would get into this game of vitiating the hygiene of this space”

I don’t know whether it is the opinion of the entire group or not. But any how I am receiving it as a proposal to show red card.

But as a part of my natural right, let me know few things.

What is the meaning of chaos?
What is the meaning of Politics?
What are the rules and regulations to write a mail to this group?
What is your right to instigate other members to ignore a person, especially in a dynamic group like Collective Chaos, Bangalore?

Vijay,

If you know the answers of these questions, you need not be afraid as “this entire debate has been initiated with the purpose of creating mischief.”

It is relevant to consider your admission as “a degree of parochial chauvinism is present in Karnataka”

What else more I did say my dear friend. When you say a fact, it is Theory and when I say the same, it is mischief.

Now, either you or any one on behalf of you may tell me as why I should be ignored? Is it for the sin of telling a truth? Or you are expecting that I should write in a particular manner?

The politics, according to me, is not the day to day politics played by the politicians/political parties. But, it is something more than that. What you have written was politics and what all others have written were also politics. So when you say politics, it is truth and when I say the same, it is unhygienic.

Mr. Vijay,

There is no need for me to play games, in this dynamic group. Because I know the meaning of Chaos.

The meaning of chaos is confusion.

Chaos is Confusion,

Chaos is disorder.

Chaos is turmoil.

Chaos is commotion. &

Chaos is pandemonium.

When the meaning of chaos is so, the purpose of this group is not to instigate the co-members to ignore a member, for the sin of writing a chaotic message. Being a man who does not belong to a particular state, community, etc, I was marked as an anonymous entity. The same time you are disinclined to consider me as a Human entity. VOW it is horrible! Mr. Vijay, Why can not you treat a Human entity as a powerful entity than any other mortal entities?

If you feel that my message was a Bomb, I feel happy. If it provoked you, I feel more happy. If you were irritated or got angry, I just don’t care, because, I know the true meaning of ‘chaos’. Chaos is not consensus. But it is the disagreement, in its true spirit. I do not want the appreciation of any one in the group. I do not want your admiration. If I could have provoked you, I am proud of my self, being a true Chaotic man.

Vijay,

Who told you that I sadly believe as this forum is a Political forum. You are mistaken. I do proudly believe that this is a strong political forum, which is discussing politics, in a collective chaotic manner. I am proud of it, because I know the true meaning of Politics. "Politics is not always the last word of a scoundral."Politics is not the private property of the politicians. Any though of an individual about the state is Politics.. When are you gonna understand all these basic things, man.

Vijay,

You may collect consensus and I will collect chaos. If I can not get chaos from here, I WILL NOT wait for your red card. I shall take the Voluntary TC, with great pleasure. Your plea for ignoring mail, is too much, which can not be tolerated within this group.

I hope, the moderator shall give an answer for it.

With chaos,

Manuvilsan

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, vijay <vndd@...> wrote:

From: vijay <vndd@...>
Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??
To: collectivechaosblr@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 11:56 AM

Hi,

I have been following the exchanges in the mailing lot with a lot of interest. And I am afraid this entire debate has been initiated with the purpose of creating mischief. Yes, a degree of parochial chauvinism is present in Karnataka. But then it is present in all the states of India. There are many North Indians who consider all South Indians to be "Madrasis." In Bombay, there was violence against the migrant working population from Bihar and West Bengal. There are countless instances of the majority community ganging up against the minority community in most states of India. It could be the Hindus against the Muslims in Gujarat or the Muslims against the Pandits in Kashmir. These are all symptoms of the same malaise. To single out Karnataka and in particular Bangalore seems to be particularly unfortunate as this is a state which has displayed much more tolerance than many others in the recent past.

Mr. Vilasan obviously likes to play games. According to him, he does not belong to the state and the community attributed to him. So he is this anonymous entity from nowhere who has dropped this mail bomb to get members irritated and angry. He sadly believes this is a political forum and therefore we must stoop down to being the kind of politicians this country has long suffered and who gain support and mileage out of creating fissures and hatred. My request to the members is to avoid falling into this trap and ignore what he has to say. Otherwise, the rest of us would get into this game of vitiating the hygiene of this space and end up saying things that we will rue later.

Cheers,

Vijay

----- Original Message -----

From: Anurag Sharan

To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:52 PM

Subject: Re: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Hi everybody.

would be happier if the debates on this forum got less combative.

Was originally supporting the point that Car licence plates need to be in English(a common link language, tho saying this alone may set off some people), so that when cars travel around to other regions and states, they may be easily identified. This is also the Law, and its time the authorities were told to strictly implement this. They're not doing their job,if they don't.And they need to be told off.

Re: regional affinities and its more extreme version, which I chose to call chauvinism, its perfectly OK for a small town in Kerala or TN or Karnataka, to display stuff in the local language. THAT is not against the Law, and while the lack of comprehension that this entails, may be inconvenient for visitors, for the vast majority its Ok.Ditto for community get togethers in Dubai or Timbuctoo.

The third point was that Bangalore is in many ways unique, as it has always had the seed of cosmopolitan- ness. Few remember that 70 years ago it was smaller than Mysore. It has grown vastly in the last 20- 30 years., because of essentially" outside businesses and foreign capital" Local talent and outside catalysts/capital is the combination. The PSU sof 1970-80s also represents domestic Indian capital . Software/ITEs represents domestic and foreign capital.In the 1900s Calcutta similarly grew tremendously because of foreign capital.There is nothing to be ashamed of these historical facts and it no way detracts from the genius of this City. If its touching a sore nerve for some to be told how Bangalore has changed from a sleepy Cantonment town to a bustling metropolis, all in 20 years, these people need to look inwards and check their inner"chauvinistic quotient'.

Cheers

Anurag

----- Original Message -----

From: amit gupta

To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:39 AM

Subject: RE: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Dear Manu Vilsan,

i am seeing a burst of these type of mails in my mailbox. Initially i thought it was some documentary titled :Fascism or Regionalism. So i ignored the mails. Please do not use this forum for POLITICAL purpose.

First let me introduce myself : i am from New Delhi but i am a resident of Bangalore for the last 8/9 years by choice. I had come from Mumbai and had two cars which had Maharashtra no plates till six months back. i had off course paid full road tax 8/9 years back. i had no problem moving around Bangalore or Karnataka, other than the occassional checks by the RTOs. i changed the number plates when i was advised by my friends to change to Karnataka number plates due to prevailing terrorist activities. i agreed.

Let me also tell you my family including my children know very little Kannada, and we have had no problems of discriminations till date. We have a small business in Bangalore, we never had any problems other than some minor regional issues like state government forms and offices having the medium of communication as Kannada. But this is there in every state and more so in Tamil Nadu and your home state Kerala. I travel extensively in the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.I also travel a lot in the Middle-East..

Now, i have cetain observations about your mails and mails on this subject:

your mail smacks of Regionalism, which is very typical of people who have a political slant for everything
in my travels abroad and especially in the Middle-East you will always find a Kerala Social Group or a Tamil Sangam which have EXCLUSIVE REGIONAL MEMBERSHIP. It is to be noted that these : Keralites and Tamilians have a dominating presence in Middle-East.

while these groups claim that it is open for all Indians, it very cleverly has ALL SOCIAL FUNCTIONS in TAMIL OR MALYALEE only.
the medium of conversation is always in Tamil or Malyalee, even when Indians from other Regions are present
even when in a mixed regional group this issue of language is brought to the notice of a Tamil or Malyalee, they initially switch to a more cosmopolitan language like English, but soon revert back to Tamil or Malyalee. Later they unashamedly say that we are talking things that we do not want you to know.

Keralities have another problem abroad...and this is to do with Keralite Christians who subtely and later vigourously promote Christianity amongst the non-resident Indian Hindus. This is the most obnoxious part!!!
Keralities in the Middle-East make a clear distinction between an Indian and a Malabari, whenever it suits them (there are many incidents which i can narrate, but that is immaterial).
These non-resident Keralities and Tamilians are utterly clannish and only employ or recommend people from their own region or community.

Dear Manu Vilsan, i can go on and on about what mischief each of the communities do to other Indians. So, please STOP this Regional or Fascist(a very communists lingo!) campaign.

regards

Amit G

To: collectivechaosblr@ yahoogroups. com
From: manuvilsan@yahoo. com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:46 +0530
Subject: [collectivechaosblr ] Is it Fascism or Regionalism ??

Is Bangalore for Kannadigas alone?

Is the number plate in a vehicle, a means to show our regional farce?

These are the questions hunted me, in the aftermath of my recent visit of Bangalore city.

I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of Kerala. I had visited the Bangalore city, recently. I feel that the regionalist approach is utmost in Bangalore.

I do share an observation.

It is regarding the number plates affixed with many of the vehicles, seen in the Bangalore city. Contrary to the universally accepted practice, many of the vehicles bearing Registration number in Kannada numerical. This is absurd and ridiculous.
The number plate in a vehicle is not a means to show our regional farce. It is a reference, by which one can identify all particulars of a vehicle. The rule prescribes that the number plates should be exhibited in the prescribed format, which is quite visible to every one. The intention of the law makers is to let others aware of the Registration Number.
But, it is a common phenomenon in Bangalore that the number plates of several vehicles possess Registration number in Kannada and Kannada alone. Here 2 questions are necessary.

What is the purpose of a number plate?
Is it a means to show our regional farce?

The purpose, as I understood, is to make others know the details of a vehicle, when there is dispute or complaints. Hence it is a sensible issue as how a person, who does not know the Kannada numerical, can understand the content of this regional number plate? I am so glad, if all Kannadigas are able to read the Kannada numerical.. But still it’s a sensible issue, because of its patent illegality..
The regionalism is everywhere in the country and even our Politicians and intelligentia has acknowledged it as a social reality. It may be a moot question whether genuinely we have ‘unity in diversity’ or not. But when we come to this specific issue, I am sad, because, it may not happen in a Federal Republic Country. It is an invasion to the individual right. Right to do an act ought to be subjected to the rights of others to know. Then only the act can be called as a reasonable one. In absence of said reasonableness, the same shall be mere absurdity.
If a vehicle bearing Kannada Registration No. may hit and run, then no one can identify that number, unless he knows Kannada Numerical. So, before entering Bangalore, it cast a duty on all foreigners, (Foreigner includes all those do not Kannada) to by heart Kannada Numerical.

I do not know, why the law enforcing authority is not addressing this sensitive issue.
I do not know why the intelligentia of our group is silent on this issue.

Yours truly,
Manuvilsan

Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger.

What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out

From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click here.

Reply | Forward

< Prev Topic | Next Topic >

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...

Messages

Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail
	Sign In New User? Sign Up
		Movies - Groups - Help

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...

Best of Y! Groups

Messages