You are right Andrea. There is not real abuse but as you say simply ignorance
and later on if the trend remains the same as in the past with the last dog,
then neglect which to me is abuse. But nothing any animal control group will get
involved with. I know there are dogs out there who are treated a lot worse than
what this little one will be so I have to just try to put her out of my mind and
hope for the best. Thanks again for your help and understanding.


--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Andrea Robinson <andreadogtrainer@...> wrote:

> From: Andrea Robinson <andreadogtrainer@...>
> Subject: Re: Need help with the puppy...........  (long response)
> To: "Beth" <hrwest2001@...>
> Cc: "AndreaDogTrainer group" <AndreaDogTrainer@yahoogroups.com>, "Clicker
Training Video" <clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 6:57 PM
> Beth, don't feel guilty. You did what you could for this
> little dog.  I do feel that you enabled a great discussion
> on two groups about the situation and what to do in similar
> situations.  Hopefully some of the group members will get
> something out of reading about it.
>
> It's tricky because it doesn't sound like there is
> the kind of abuse that you could report to Animal Control. 
> Just ignorance.  What a shame.  So you've probably
> done all you could.
>
> Bless you for looking out for this little one.  And thanks
> for sharing it with the groups.
>
> Andrea
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Beth <hrwest2001@...>
> To: Andrea Robinson <andreadogtrainer@...>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:37:41 PM
> Subject: Re:Need help with the puppy........... (long
> response)
>
> Hi Andrea and Karen,
>
> Thank you both for your responses. I have tried to pass on
> some of the
> information to my boss's wife who will be the main care
> giver.
> Unfortunately the email that I sent her so that she would
> have it in
> writing to refer back to has not even been opened. (we use
> the same
> computer and she left her email box open the other day and
> that was
> the one and only email that I sent her). I am in a position
> where it
> is difficult to interfere. This family is nuts. My boss
> started
> feeding the puppy bits of food off of his plate so of
> course now she
> begs and barks when he is eating, so now he is using a
> waggly finger,
> aggressive voice and tap on the nose to try to stop the
> behavior he
> created and that I told him would happen. Last night when
> he used his
> techniques and I dared to say anything he shot back with it
> is his way
> of doing things and his way always works. (His Maltese King
> Tut peed
> all over the place, begged for food constantly and had many
> bad
> behaviors even though he was a very sweet boy. (totally
> neglected most
> of the time though with little if any vet care, and almost
> zero
> grooming till he got so dirty that my boss's wife could
> not stand it
> and would bath him.)
>
> Stanley Coren is from my neck of the woods on the west
> coast. I think
> I have all of his books and I watched his television
> program as often
> as possible. I really like his positive approach to things.
>
> I hate to say it, but I am in a position where there is
> little more I
> can do for this puppy so I am trying to just withdraw. I
> made sure she
> got the vet care when her leg was broken and tried to talk
> some common
> sense into these two people. My boss is a bully and I will
> soon be
> free of this situation which means leaving the puppy
> behind. I feel
> like I have failed this little girl terribly.
>
> --- In clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com, Andrea
> Robinson
> <andreadogtrainer@...> wrote:
> >
> > There are a couple of problems associated with using
> punishment to
> teach a puppy not to bite.  The first problem is that
> it's
> unnecessary.  I know that we've all been taught over
> and over and over
> that we should hit a puppy with our fingers, newspapers,
> etc., but
> it's unnecessary, and whenever you punish a puppy
> unnecessarily, you
> reduce the amount of trust that the puppy has for you, and
> that's a
> ghost that can haunt you for the rest of your life.  A lot
> of people
> think, "My dog's just not that smart because he
> can't do
> such-and-so."  But when somebody else works with that
> dog, he does it
> and does it well.  That's because a dog that has
> experienced corporal
> punishment as a training method will not be as willing to
> try new
> things and will not throw himself into a tough learning
> problem with
> the same enthusiasm.
> >
> > Everything we teach a dog modifies his basic
> instincts.  To get a
> dog to trust you instead of trusting his basic instincts is
> a process
> called conditioning.  If a dog wants to bark and lunge at
> the mailman
> and you want him to sit quietly and wait for the mailman to
> pass, you
> must condition the dog. 
> >
> > Think of jumping out of an airplane to go skydiving or
> to perform a
> military operation.  Do your instincts tell you to jump,
> or have you
> already been conditioned to trust the pilot, jumpmaster,
> parachute,
> parachute packers, and/or commanders?  Sometimes you can
> get someone
> to jump out of fear, but it's actually less damaging to
> the person to
> use conditioning.  For example, you can do practice
> parachute rolls,
> have classes, make tandem jumps, use a drag line (I forget
> what they
> really call it) that opens his chute for him the first few
> times,
> etc.  Each element builds a net of trust so that the
> parachutist is
> jumping into a net of trust rather than jumping for fear of
> retaliation.
> >
> > In Roman times, the soldiers had to fight because they
> knew they
> would be murdered by the commander if they didn't.  So
> that works,
> too.  But which way do you prefer for teaching your dog?
> It's a matter
> of personal choice.
> >
> > The Monks of New Skete used to recommend alpha rolls
> (where you roll
> the puppy onto its back to punish unwanted behavior), but
> came out
> against them later and said that they wished they had never
> done so. 
> I believe that Jan Fennell addresses this in her book, The
> Dog
> Whisperer, and I know for sure that Roger Abrantes explains
> it in Dog
> Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior. 
> >
> > By the way, gently rolling your puppy onto his back
> during cuddle
> time or to do a temperament test is NOT the same as an
> alpha roll,
> which is swift, powerful, and forced on the dog.
> >
> > As Roger Abrantes explains, most people are a little
> confused about
> the timing and purpose of the alpha roll.  While they
> constantly see
> dogs on their backs while playing or fighting with another
> dog, they
> generally fail to notice that one dog has chosen to roll
> over on his
> back -- the so-called alpha did not force him to roll
> over. 
> >
> > Abrantes goes on to explain that once in awhile an
> alpha dog will,
> indeed, roll another dog onto his back.  But when he does
> so, he kills
> that dog.  Most dog conflicts, even the ones that look
> absolutely
> horrific and spill blood, never get to this point.  While
> a lot of
> damage might be done during a dog fight, it is generally
> surface
> damage and not life-threatening.  That is because all
> leaders realize
> that killing another pack mate during a dispute is a waste
> of a
> hunting partner.  The alpha would have to be on his last
> nerve to
> actually perform an alpha roll, and it is meant to be
> lethal. 
> >
> > So if you want your puppy to be absolutely petrified
> that you will
> kill it, please by all means use alpha rolls.  What might
> be even
> worse is performing an alpha roll and not following through
> by killing
> your puppy.  This might just teach the puppy that you are
> an
> ineffective leader incapable of truly following through
> with the
> designated discipline.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong: I'm sure that millions of
> people have performed
> alpha rolls and not damaged their animals for life.  It is
> truly
> amazing how much bungling on our part dogs can handle
> without becoming
> completely psychotic.  While they have no way to
> physically speak
> words to us in our language, we are capable of studying and
> learning
> their body language.  So it would seem in our better
> interest to
> actually study and learn, knowing that bridging the
> communication gap
> is a huge part of getting the dog to obey.  How can we
> punish a dog
> for a behavior that might actually be meant to communicate
> something
> to us?
> >
> > I was in the shelter one time and saw a dog raise its
> paw and touch
> the leg of the lady that was adopting it.  The lady
> promptly
> reprimanded the dog and smacked it lightly a few times. 
> Alarmed, I
> told the lady that the dog was trying to tell her something
> and showed
> her how to teach the dog to keep all four paws on the
> floor.  She was
> completely disgusted and gave me a murder one look.  This
> lady, this
> angel who was adopting the dog and saving its life, had
> completely
> ignored the point that the raised paw is a reconciliatory
> gesture. The
> dog was trying to defer to her, "make nice" to
> her, yet she was
> punishing it for doing so.  It made me sick to my stomach,
> but I had
> to butt out and realize that this lady did not ask for my
> advice and
> did not want it. Chances are, the adoption will take and
> the dog will
> live happily ever after.  What a shame that the dog will
> be
> misunderstood a good deal of the time for its whole life. 
> >
> > Let's learn about body language so we stop making
> the mistakes that
> make our dogs miserable.  Do you want to read an excellent
> book on
> body language?  I suggest How to Speak Dog by Stanley
> Coren.
> >
> > I'm glad that Karen's experience with trying
> the alpha roll went
> well.  For most families, it will probably go fine.  It
> doesn't teach
> the dog what you WANT it to do in a given situation -- only
> instruction can do that.  Punishment can only deter a
> dog from
> exhibiting unwanted behavior. 
> >
> > I like to teach the dogs what to do and reinforce them
> for doing the
> right thing.  It is faster than punishing unwanted
> behavior and then
> trying to go back later and teach them what you want them
> to do.  But
> people have been punishing their dogs since time
> immemorial, and it
> works to deter behavior. I taught people how to punish
> their dogs with
> leash corrections for many years, and it really does
> work.  But when
> you start learning how to reinforce your dog with positive
> reinforcement, you can get your dog to do anything it is
> capable of
> learning.  Go to www.dogdance.net and click on English,
> and click on
> Video Clips and you will see what I mean.
> >
> > I want to make it clear that this in no way is meant
> to be a rail
> against Karen.  She has an amazing ability to train
> animals and has
> proven it time after time after time. She's a humane
> person that loves
> everybody and shares her love generously.  Her use of the
> rap on the
> nose and the alpha roll worked great in this one situation,
> and she
> pours all kinds of time and attention on her dogs other
> than
> punishment.  Maybe that is the key.  She works with them
> often and
> showers all kinds of praise on them, so they are not
> getting a steady
> diet of punishment, punishment, punishment. 
> >
> > Many people who use punishment are not this
> even-handed.  For
> example, someone might scream, "SHUT UP!!" at
> their dogs and the dogs
> will be so startled that they really do shut up for a
> little while. 
> But then they get right back into the barking.  So the
> person repeats
> the screaming, and the dogs quiet down for awhile and then
> start up
> again.  I feel that punishment actually becomes addicting
> to the
> punisher because it seems to work so well in the short
> run.  But for
> those of us who rehabilitate dogs, we see how just a few
> simple
> lessons can help the dog's "light bulb" go
> off and how
> good behavior becomes very consistent after that.  In
> fact, the dogs
> welcome the knowledge of what they are supposed to do. They
> are
> relieved because they are no longer afraid, and they are
> more
> confident because they are competent and they know it.
> >
> > Karen also said, "you can reinforce her good
> (non-biting) behaviour
> with the click and she will learn when she stops biting
> that is a GOOD
> thing ..."  Actually, I never suggested that you
> allow your puppy to
> bite you and wait until she stops and then
> click-and-treat.  I'm glad
> that Karen brought this up in case anyone else did not
> understand my
> recipe for stopping the play-biting.  If you feel teeth on
> your skin,
> I suggest that you yelp while moving your hand
> away immediately.  Then
> you freeze in position, safely, and gradually unfreeze and
> return to
> the puppy calmly.
> >
> > The yelping lets your puppy know that biting hurts;
> moving your hand
> away and removing eye contact and playtime is equivalent to
> taking
> away something that the puppy wants; and returning only
> very slowly
> and calmly is body language for, "Is it safe to play
> with you again?" 
> Puppies tend to understand all this because there are no
> words (human
> language) and you are speaking to the puppy in the only
> language it
> understands (body language).  You never allow a puppy to
> simply
> continue biting you until she feels like stopping, and then
> click and
> treat.  That would be equivalent to reinforcing the puppy
> for biting.
> >
> > Thanks so much for reading this lengthy email and I
> hope it provides
> food for thought.  And thank you, Karen, for clapping the
> other hand. 
> We really need to hear all points of view so that we can
> understand
> all sides of the issue.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Andy's ^i^ mom <andys_child@...>
> > To: clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 2:31:14 AM
> > Subject: [clicker-training-video] Re:Need help with
> the puppy...........
> >
> >
> >
> > Beth, AmbrrNanaDog was a real biter as a puppy. 
> She's a shelter
> alumni, so who knows her history.  She is THE BEST dog on
> the planet
> (next to Gabriel, of course) and I stopped her biting by
> circling her
> snout with my fingers and one finger across snout in a tap,
> with NO
> BITING. 
> >
> > When she would go crazy aggressive, I would roll her
> onto her back
> (she was probably under 8 weeks) and I have to tell you she
> went
> fromthe worst wild child to the best behaved hand command
> trained dog. 
> >
> > As Andrea will weigh in, you can reinforce her good
> (non-biting)
> behaviour with the click and she will learn when she stops
> biting that
> is a GOOD thing and hopefully will get into the 'please
> the human'
> frame of mind.  Most dogs crave our love and approval, and
> that is the
> greatest motivator, love and happiness. 
> > As my NanaDog will tell you, when Mama aint happy aint
> nobody happy :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Karen Anderson
> > Andy's ^i^Mom
> > http://www.andrewke ithanderson. tvheaven. com/
> > Lethal White Aussie Rescue
> > http://www.s8. createphpbb. com/lethalwhitea uss/
> >

Hi Andrea and Karen,

Thank you both for your responses. I have tried to pass on some of the
information to my boss's wife who will be the main care giver.
Unfortunately the email that I sent her so that she would have it in
writing to refer back to has not even been opened. (we use the same
computer and she left her email box open the other day and that was
the one and only email that I sent her). I am in a position where it
is difficult to interfere. This family is nuts. My boss started
feeding the puppy bits of food off of his plate so of course now she
begs and barks when he is eating, so now he is using a waggly finger,
aggressive voice and tap on the nose to try to stop the behavior he
created and that I told him would happen. Last night when he used his
techniques and I dared to say anything he shot back with it is his way
of doing things and his way always works. (His Maltese King Tut peed
all over the place, begged for food constantly and had many bad
behaviors even though he was a very sweet boy. (totally neglected most
of the time though with little if any vet care, and almost zero
grooming till he got so dirty that my boss's wife could not stand it
and would bath him.)

Stanley Coren is from my neck of the woods on the west coast. I think
I have all of his books and I watched his television program as often
as possible. I really like his positive approach to things.

I hate to say it, but I am in a position where there is little more I
can do for this puppy so I am trying to just withdraw. I made sure she
got the vet care when her leg was broken and tried to talk some common
sense into these two people. My boss is a bully and I will soon be
free of this situation which means leaving the puppy behind. I feel
like I have failed this little girl terribly.

--- In clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Robinson
<andreadogtrainer@...> wrote:
>
> There are a couple of problems associated with using punishment to
teach a puppy not to bite.  The first problem is that it's
unnecessary.  I know that we've all been taught over and over and over
that we should hit a puppy with our fingers, newspapers, etc., but
it's unnecessary, and whenever you punish a puppy unnecessarily, you
reduce the amount of trust that the puppy has for you, and that's a
ghost that can haunt you for the rest of your life.  A lot of people
think, "My dog's just not that smart because he can't do
such-and-so."  But when somebody else works with that dog, he does it
and does it well.  That's because a dog that has experienced corporal
punishment as a training method will not be as willing to try new
things and will not throw himself into a tough learning problem with
the same enthusiasm.
>
> Everything we teach a dog modifies his basic instincts.  To get a
dog to trust you instead of trusting his basic instincts is a process
called conditioning.  If a dog wants to bark and lunge at the mailman
and you want him to sit quietly and wait for the mailman to pass, you
must condition the dog. 
>
> Think of jumping out of an airplane to go skydiving or to perform a
military operation.  Do your instincts tell you to jump, or have you
already been conditioned to trust the pilot, jumpmaster, parachute,
parachute packers, and/or commanders?  Sometimes you can get someone
to jump out of fear, but it's actually less damaging to the person to
use conditioning.  For example, you can do practice parachute rolls,
have classes, make tandem jumps, use a drag line (I forget what they
really call it) that opens his chute for him the first few times,
etc.  Each element builds a net of trust so that the parachutist is
jumping into a net of trust rather than jumping for fear of retaliation.
>
> In Roman times, the soldiers had to fight because they knew they
would be murdered by the commander if they didn't.  So that works,
too.  But which way do you prefer for teaching your dog? It's a matter
of personal choice.
>
> The Monks of New Skete used to recommend alpha rolls (where you roll
the puppy onto its back to punish unwanted behavior), but came out
against them later and said that they wished they had never done so. 
I believe that Jan Fennell addresses this in her book, The Dog
Whisperer, and I know for sure that Roger Abrantes explains it in Dog
Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior. 
>
> By the way, gently rolling your puppy onto his back during cuddle
time or to do a temperament test is NOT the same as an alpha roll,
which is swift, powerful, and forced on the dog.
>
> As Roger Abrantes explains, most people are a little confused about
the timing and purpose of the alpha roll.  While they constantly see
dogs on their backs while playing or fighting with another dog, they
generally fail to notice that one dog has chosen to roll over on his
back -- the so-called alpha did not force him to roll over. 
>
> Abrantes goes on to explain that once in awhile an alpha dog will,
indeed, roll another dog onto his back.  But when he does so, he kills
that dog.  Most dog conflicts, even the ones that look absolutely
horrific and spill blood, never get to this point.  While a lot of
damage might be done during a dog fight, it is generally surface
damage and not life-threatening.  That is because all leaders realize
that killing another pack mate during a dispute is a waste of a
hunting partner.  The alpha would have to be on his last nerve to
actually perform an alpha roll, and it is meant to be lethal. 
>
> So if you want your puppy to be absolutely petrified that you will
kill it, please by all means use alpha rolls.  What might be even
worse is performing an alpha roll and not following through by killing
your puppy.  This might just teach the puppy that you are an
ineffective leader incapable of truly following through with the
designated discipline.
>
> Don't get me wrong: I'm sure that millions of people have performed
alpha rolls and not damaged their animals for life.  It is truly
amazing how much bungling on our part dogs can handle without becoming
completely psychotic.  While they have no way to physically speak
words to us in our language, we are capable of studying and learning
their body language.  So it would seem in our better interest to
actually study and learn, knowing that bridging the communication gap
is a huge part of getting the dog to obey.  How can we punish a dog
for a behavior that might actually be meant to communicate something
to us?
>
> I was in the shelter one time and saw a dog raise its paw and touch
the leg of the lady that was adopting it.  The lady promptly
reprimanded the dog and smacked it lightly a few times.  Alarmed, I
told the lady that the dog was trying to tell her something and showed
her how to teach the dog to keep all four paws on the floor.  She was
completely disgusted and gave me a murder one look.  This lady, this
angel who was adopting the dog and saving its life, had completely
ignored the point that the raised paw is a reconciliatory gesture. The
dog was trying to defer to her, "make nice" to her, yet she was
punishing it for doing so.  It made me sick to my stomach, but I had
to butt out and realize that this lady did not ask for my advice and
did not want it. Chances are, the adoption will take and the dog will
live happily ever after.  What a shame that the dog will be
misunderstood a good deal of the time for its whole life. 
>
> Let's learn about body language so we stop making the mistakes that
make our dogs miserable.  Do you want to read an excellent book on
body language?  I suggest How to Speak Dog by Stanley Coren.
>
> I'm glad that Karen's experience with trying the alpha roll went
well.  For most families, it will probably go fine.  It doesn't teach
the dog what you WANT it to do in a given situation -- only
instruction can do that.  Punishment can only deter a dog from
exhibiting unwanted behavior. 
>
> I like to teach the dogs what to do and reinforce them for doing the
right thing.  It is faster than punishing unwanted behavior and then
trying to go back later and teach them what you want them to do.  But
people have been punishing their dogs since time immemorial, and it
works to deter behavior. I taught people how to punish their dogs with
leash corrections for many years, and it really does work.  But when
you start learning how to reinforce your dog with positive
reinforcement, you can get your dog to do anything it is capable of
learning.  Go to www.dogdance.net and click on English, and click on
Video Clips and you will see what I mean.
>
> I want to make it clear that this in no way is meant to be a rail
against Karen.  She has an amazing ability to train animals and has
proven it time after time after time. She's a humane person that loves
everybody and shares her love generously.  Her use of the rap on the
nose and the alpha roll worked great in this one situation, and she
pours all kinds of time and attention on her dogs other than
punishment.  Maybe that is the key.  She works with them often and
showers all kinds of praise on them, so they are not getting a steady
diet of punishment, punishment, punishment. 
>
> Many people who use punishment are not this even-handed.  For
example, someone might scream, "SHUT UP!!" at their dogs and the dogs
will be so startled that they really do shut up for a little while. 
But then they get right back into the barking.  So the person repeats
the screaming, and the dogs quiet down for awhile and then start up
again.  I feel that punishment actually becomes addicting to the
punisher because it seems to work so well in the short run.  But for
those of us who rehabilitate dogs, we see how just a few simple
lessons can help the dog's "light bulb" go off and how
good behavior becomes very consistent after that.  In fact, the dogs
welcome the knowledge of what they are supposed to do. They are
relieved because they are no longer afraid, and they are more
confident because they are competent and they know it.
>
> Karen also said, "you can reinforce her good (non-biting) behaviour
with the click and she will learn when she stops biting that is a GOOD
thing ..."  Actually, I never suggested that you allow your puppy to
bite you and wait until she stops and then click-and-treat.  I'm glad
that Karen brought this up in case anyone else did not understand my
recipe for stopping the play-biting.  If you feel teeth on your skin,
I suggest that you yelp while moving your hand away immediately.  Then
you freeze in position, safely, and gradually unfreeze and return to
the puppy calmly.
>
> The yelping lets your puppy know that biting hurts; moving your hand
away and removing eye contact and playtime is equivalent to taking
away something that the puppy wants; and returning only very slowly
and calmly is body language for, "Is it safe to play with you again?" 
Puppies tend to understand all this because there are no words (human
language) and you are speaking to the puppy in the only language it
understands (body language).  You never allow a puppy to simply
continue biting you until she feels like stopping, and then click and
treat.  That would be equivalent to reinforcing the puppy for biting.
>
> Thanks so much for reading this lengthy email and I hope it provides
food for thought.  And thank you, Karen, for clapping the other hand. 
We really need to hear all points of view so that we can understand
all sides of the issue.
>
> :)
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Andy's ^i^ mom <andys_child@...>
> To: clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 2:31:14 AM
> Subject: [clicker-training-video] Re:Need help with the puppy...........
>
>
>
> Beth, AmbrrNanaDog was a real biter as a puppy.  She's a shelter
alumni, so who knows her history.  She is THE BEST dog on the planet
(next to Gabriel, of course) and I stopped her biting by circling her
snout with my fingers and one finger across snout in a tap, with NO
BITING. 
>
> When she would go crazy aggressive, I would roll her onto her back
(she was probably under 8 weeks) and I have to tell you she went
fromthe worst wild child to the best behaved hand command trained dog. 
>
> As Andrea will weigh in, you can reinforce her good (non-biting)
behaviour with the click and she will learn when she stops biting that
is a GOOD thing and hopefully will get into the 'please the human'
frame of mind.  Most dogs crave our love and approval, and that is the
greatest motivator, love and happiness. 
> As my NanaDog will tell you, when Mama aint happy aint nobody happy :)
>
>
>
>
> Karen Anderson
> Andy's ^i^Mom
> http://www.andrewke ithanderson. tvheaven. com/
> Lethal White Aussie Rescue
> http://www.s8. createphpbb. com/lethalwhitea uss/
>

My boss and his wife have a new poodle cocker spaniel mix puppy. She
came from a pet store and was about 2 1/2 months old when they got her
a couple of weeks ago. First night home she broke her let. The entire
situation has been very negative for a lot of reasons, but the puppy
is doing well except for some bad behaviour. Being from a puppy store
(most likely bred at a mill) I believe she was taken from the Mom way
too early and so she has not learned things bite inhibition. ON top fo
that these people should not have a puppy to begin with. Puppy is
comnig along with some things, like potty training. But she bites all
the time. Play biting, but none the less very annoying to adults and
will be dangerous situation when the grandchildren visit. We have been
giving her things she can bite or chew in place of hands, feet, noses,
ears, etc but she is getting worse instead of better. She is probably
bored too. How do we get a puppy to stop biting? I really need to find
some solution to this situation.

Thanks

Beth, (angel Josephine) and Gracie

I have a cat you can borrow <g>.

Andrea Robinson wrote:
> Lynn, so nice to hear from you.  I'm copying another Yahoo group about
> dog training because I know you won't mind.
>
> Answers are below:
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: lynneverhart1 <lynneverhart1@...>
> To: clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:20:21 PM
> Subject: [clicker-training-video] Hi Andrea! I need your advice!
>
> Hi Andrea,
> Been a long time, hasn't it?
>
> --Yes, it has!!
>
>
> Look, I just took in a foster dog from SharPei Savers where we had
> gotten blind Murray years ago. This little girl is 5 years old and
> blind too. Her 80 year old owner got sick and her "friends" took
> Angel to the pound. SharPei Savers rescued her, but because no foster
> homes were available, she was put in a kennel to wait for the past 2
> months. I decided to be a foster home for them, and she is my first
> one. She is very sweet.
>
> --Good for you!
>
> Trouble is she is OBSESSED with my 3 cats! I
> mean, she won't stop looking for them constantly! We just got her
> Sat.  so I let her have the run of the house, and even though she's
> gotten smacked 3 times so far, it doesn't stop her.
>
> --What's happening is that the reinforcement she gets from chasing the
> cats is more important to her than the punishment of having the cats
> swat her on the nose.  When that happens, you have to arrange the
> environment so she doesn't have the chance to constantly rehearse the
> bad behavior, because she's currently reinforcing her own bad behavior
> over and over.  When the dog doesn't get the prize she is looking for,
> she will be more open to taking a "consolation prize" from us.
>
> She smells them as they pass and she's off and tracking. Even if they
> don't pass her, she's looking, all the time. This afternoon I finally
> left her leash on her harness and kept her with me. Right now the
> leash is hooked over my shoe as I am on the computer, and for the
> first time she is laying down.
>
> -- Now you're talking! By controlling her movements, you've
> interrupted her ability to perform the self-reinforcing behavior.  Now
> it's time to take the next step and set up the environment for a
> series of lessons.   Because she's blind, it will be a little more
> complicated, but the essence is the same.  Read on...
>
> She would run around here for hours and hours before and
> never rest. So how can I fix her fixation? I did buy a new clicker as
> I gave my old one away, do I get it and click it now as she is
> resting and give her a treat?
>
> -- Yes, please buy another clicker.  Blind dogs love it.  If she is
> resting quietly, you can capture that behavior and click and treat
> it.  But what are you going to name that behavior?  Think of something
> you would like to say when the cats are present.  Let's say you want
> to teach the command "leave it."
>
> -- Get a friend to help you with this.  Have the friend hold some
> treats in his hand while you have the clicker and some other,
> different treats available.  Tell the friend to lower his closed hand
> close enough to her that she can smell the treats but to simply keep
> his hand closed so she can't get them.  He's got to leave his hand
> down there while she tries to get the treats out.  In the meantime,
> you say "Leave it" and wait until she gives up trying and looks away,
> even if it's for a split second.  At the precise instant that she
> looks away, you click and treat her and your friend removes his hand.
> Do this several times until she looks away as soon as you say, "Leave
> it."
>
> -- The last time you do this, say, "Wait," instead of "leave it," and
> when you click, let your friend open his hand and give her his
> treats.  (You see, "Leave it" means that the dog is never going to get
> it.  "Wait" means that the dog can have it, but has to wait until you
> say it's okay.)  I always like to end a training session on a high
> note like this.  Training sessions should only last about 10 minutes
> or so.
>
> -- Next step:  You really can't do this next step if the dog has free
> run of the house, and I do recommend you using baby gates or some
> other means to define the areas where your dog is allowed.   Putting
> her on a leash or in an x-pen are fine for the next part.
>
> -- Anyway, put away all the cats except one while your dog is confined
> to an area.  Put the one cat in a cat carrier, and consider covering
> it with a towel or something so the cat will not be afraid when she
> sees the dog.  Bring the carrier within "noseshot" of your dog, but
> far enough away that the dog will not be able to reach it.  Say "Leave
> it," and let the dog struggle to get at the cat, because you know that
> it will never work.
>
> -- At the precise second that the dog seems to give up or turn away,
> click and treat!  Make a big fuss like it's the best trick you've ever
> seen.  You'll need to repeat this over and over with the various cats,
> taking as much time as you need.  Remember that you should only do it
> for 10 minutes at a time, so it may be once a day for several weeks,
> several times a day for a week or two, or whatever.  The behavior of
> the dog and the cats is what will determine how much time you need.
>
> -- Don't be too stingy with the click and treat at first.  For
> example, the dog may only turn away for a split-second and you've got
> to be quick enough to click and treat before she goes back to trying
> for the cat.
>
> -- If this does not work at the distance you've selected because the
> dog simply never looks away, try it again with the cat a little
> farther away.
>
> -- The main thing to be careful of is to make sure the cats don't get
> traumatized during this experience.  You can also use some cat-scented
> item instead of the actual cat if you like.  If the dog doesn't
> respond right away, you can rustle the item so it sounds more like a
> live cat.
>
> And what else can I do? HELP!!!
> Lynn
>
> --Lynn, I'm glad you asked and I certainly hope this is of help!
> Please let us know how it goes! So nice hearing from you!!  :)  Andrea
>
>

Hi Andrea,
Been a long time, hasn't it?
Look, I just took in a foster dog from SharPei Savers where we had
gotten blind Murray years ago. This little girl is 5 years old and
blind too. Her 80 year old owner got sick and her "friends" took
Angel to the pound. SharPei Savers rescued her, but because no foster
homes were available, she was put in a kennel to waitfor the past 2
months. I decided to be a foster home for them, and she is my first
one. She is very sweet. Trouble is she is OBSESSED with my 3 cats! I
mean, she won't stop looking for them constantly! We just got her
Sat. so I let her have the run of the house, and even though she's
gotten smacked 3 times so far, it doesn't stop her. She smells them
as they pass and she's off and tracking. Even if they don't pass her,
she's looking, all the time. This afternoon I finally left her leash
on her harness and kept her with me. Right now the leash is hooked
over my shoe as I am on the computer, and for the first time she is
laying down. She would run around her for hours and hours before and
never rest. So how can I fix her fixation? I did buy a new clicker as
I gave my old one away, do I get it and click it now as she is
resting and give her a treat? And what else can I do? HELP!!!
Lynn

Apparently the person who just spammed us was a member before I
restricted membership.  She has been removed as a member.  Sorry about
that.

Keep clicking!!

:)

Andrea

This is just a test.

Hi, Myself Bindia . I am a part of the Film Industry .Our company has
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Will wait for your reply..
Regards,
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You can also mail me at  bindia.filmaka@...

Hi, I adopted a blind dog also, unfortuantely he has passed away.
There is a blind dog group too that is very informative if you didn't
know. I'm sure Andrea will answer any questions you have about clicker
training, she's an expert! Good luck and God bless..
Lynn

midnight is a GREAT and wonderful BLIND black lab we adopted last
summer from the pound. clicker training makes sense to me and i hope to
him...obviously he CAN NOT see hand signals!!!   looking forward to
this group. carmella

Hi myself Mansi
I just searched for those who are film
professionals. and so i found u. i have found a wonderful website
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Regards mansi..

Well, I am so excited to learn some new techniques. 

As far as Cesar is concerned, I live an alpha attitude. I grew into it years ago. My dogs look to me if they need to be 'on guard' or afraid, or calm.  I have always maintained an alpha aura and my dogs are the most loved, pampered pups on the planet, but they respect me totally. Even Allicks, except when she is in the zone.  I say NO, and everyone stops what they are doing, and get a look in their eyes, like, OH NO, WHAT DID I DO?  Why, Because they live to please me.  My love for them and my delight in them is their motivator. They are not 'afraid' of me, but they are afraid to upset me, because then I am not the tender lovin mama they adore, I am a taskmaster, who will with a stern word, firmly tell them NO.  When mama mad, aint nobody happy.

But I am stymied by Allicks. I have NO idea why this has started and why it continues. No baby gate is trusted, especially when I sleep. She is behind the bedroom door with me. I was terribly apprehensive taking her to petsmart last weekend, but it went well. She did not go into the zone with any strange dogs, altho I did not allow any dog to really approach her and kept my ear open for the rumble which preceeds the attack. I am clueless. She only does this with Gabriel.

So I did not get the choke collar today, was so busy trying to rescue a highway dog and do the rescue booth.

 

Hooo, been a long day. I am saving all this to review, and if ANY one has ideas on stopping a blindpup from brutally attacking a deafblindpup, I would love to hear it.  I will try the desensitization, which basically entails two people holdling the dogs within smelling distance and going from there. I really am not looking for ward to that. I also need to get Allicks a muzzle before I do this.

Andrea Robinson <andrearobinson93210@...> wrote:

Hey, glad you were accepted to the group!  Let me know when you finally get in all the way. 

 

Well, this is getting quite psychedelic, so I'm going to excerpt things to respond to.

 

By the way, it looks like you did not cc the rest of the group on this ... I don't know if anyone is interested, but I sure try to include them if I can. Figure they can always delete if not interested!

 

"He squares his shoulders, breathes deeply, looks straight ahead, never at the dog.  A little bit like Command Performance, you take the lead, never letting the dog get aheada of you, and just walking, expecting the dog to follow.  Dogs pick up on our vibes and when Cesar takes the lead (of course any dog will act better with a stranger than with their moms, same with kids) the dog knows this two-legger is alpha, totally in attitude. This is the amazing aspect that I have really studied. The attitude. It is all in attitude."

 

Well, I think attitude is a good part of it.  But I also think that if you're using an artificial "attitude" that you will slip out of it once in awhile, especially if you're tired, and then what happens?  I like the postive-based training because you don't have to aspire to be anyone that you aren't already.  Maybe it will work with Allicks because she is already used to the "attitude" and you've just slacked off of her so she has taken advantage of it.  But that's why I don't like having to have a certain attitude because eventually I will get a fever or experience a tragedy and I will not be able to keep up a front with my dogs.  The way it is now, if I'm in a down place in my life, the dogs behave just as well as they do when I'm up.  I'm not familiar with Command Performance.  I'll have to look into it.

 

I think there are two huge schools of dog training -- one, the militaristic kind, and I remember this English lady that used to be on TV when I was much younger.   When she said "Heel," the dogs snapped into position.  I think they knew that it was just a game, though, because I think they adored her.  I think that people have mistaken the discipline part as the part that the dogs love, while I think that the dogs are willing to put up with the discipline because they know that underneath it all, the owner/handler loves them.

 

Think back to all the bosses you've had in your life.  Do you ever remember having a boss that was very concerned about making sure everybody remembered that he was in charge?  He might have told you what you did wrong, and he might have even praised you, but he was always officious and let you know that you were a peon, so even though you worked well for him, you didn't like him. Then think about a boss that really cared about you and let you know it.  He may have had to tell you when you were doing something wrong, but you knew he cared about the company AND you.  How did you work for him?  I have had a few bosses that I would basically walk through fire for.  But not most of them.

 

I think that if Cesar has this "attitude" that he's the "boss," he is also doing something that lets the dogs know that he cares about them.  Otherwise they wouldn't follow him.  Does he ever tell you about this part of the attitude?

 

 

"I have Dogspeak by Dash somebody, and when JasonDundee was living with me (one tough cookie) I practiced dogspeak, growling (he turned on me twice after his rescue from the crackhouse) and snarling to show him I WAS THE BOSS ~ it's a horrible thing to be afraid your beloved pup will attack you when you are sleeping ~ and while it worked for JasonDundee, I like Cesar's method a whole lot better."

I wish I knew more about Cesar's technique.  I can infer from what you're saying that he doesn't bare his teeth and growl at the dogs!! I'm glad that the Dogspeak worked for JasonDundee. 

 

I am convinced that dogs will respond to and put up with all kinds of crazy s**t that we humans hand them.  That doesn't mean that we're doing something "right," but that the dogs really do a lot to accommodate us.  But who knows?  I wasn't there and if you got JasonDundee to back off, it must have been a blessing. 

 

A superstitious belief is when you link something that isn't linked in "real life."  For example, pretend I read in a dog training book that I should always wear pink underpants when I train my dog and they will respond better.  Well, armed with the knowledge that I am doing the right thing, I might just do other things that the dogs really do respond to because I'm more confident.  The trouble is that we never know what superstitions we have.  We all have them.

 

Suppose you bared your teeth at JasonDundee and he was so shocked that he backed off.  Then suppose that your whole body relaxed and you felt better because you had such good effect with baring your teeth.  And suppose that the dog noticed that you were more relaxed, calm, and confident, and that's what really changed him over time.  Well, you would never know, would you? You might have gotten the same results by just clapping your hands instead of baring your teeth.

 

I'm not saying that that's what happened in your case.  I'm just trying to explain the nature of superstitions.

 

I think that one superstition I had was that clicker training was everything.  Shortly after getting my foster dog, Paco, I regretted getting rid of all my choke collars.  That's because I was not exactly starting from scratch with Paco and perhaps he'd had other trainers jerk on his collar and he had been conditioned only to pay attention to leash corrections.  None of the other gestures, verbiage, etc., meant a darn thing to him.  I now think that when you're rehabbing a dog, you've got to start wherever you start, but that the goal should be to get them onto a positive training regimen as soon as possible.

Let's face it; even the old Kohler (leash correction) training is positive to a dog in that he's getting attention!  That's something that they really want!  Not the only thing, but they will put up with an awful lot of mistakes on our part if we are giving them attention.  A few dogs, however, will become more violent if we use the wrong techniques on them.  They just can't handle the violence.  If they don't turn on us, they get more jittery and start turning on their pack-mates instead. 

 

"Yes, books recommend letting the dogs work it out, and when humans interfere is when you have problems. This is not an acceptable course of action for Allicks. She MUST have limits and with Gabriel, she would just continue until someone broke it up. He is a sitting duck, so that won't happen. Allicks has challenged Ambrr and I interfered, then let Ambrr put her in her place. And she has challenged Jude, who quickly put her in her place. She leaves them alone now."

 

Okay, I thought that's what you meant.  Yes, I've heard the conventional wisdom that it's best to just let them work it out, and honestly, that will work fine for many situations.  That doesn't mean it's a good technique, because the conventional wisdom may be superstitious. In other words, it worked many, many times, so it was concluded that that was the "right" or "best" thing to do. 

 

But if you've ever had a blood-bath in your home you will think twice about the conventional wisdom.  This wisdom also forgets that we force these dogs to stay together, and they are not related and they don't know each other from birth the way real packs do.  So, again, I would think that like baring your teeth and doing alpha rolls, it works so well for so many dogs that we think it's a good technique.  But the one time it doesn't work, you will be so sorry.  I'm sure that a person who has done successful alpha rolls for 15 years would be completely shocked to have a dog bite her in the face.  When she gets out of the hospital, she will say that the dog has to be euthanized because he is no good.  But it never occurs to her that there might be better ways to handle situations than doing alpha rolls.  That is the power of superstition.

 

Anyway, how did I get back on that again?

 

I see that the leave-'em-alone technique worked with all the other dogs, but it doesn't work with Allicks and Gabriel.  I think that classical conditioning would work for these guys, but you would have to start by setting up the environment right.

 

"We have the baby gate up. But she 'hates' him through the baby gate. I have no idea how she finds him." 

 

So the baby gate, alone, is not enough to be successful.  Before you start working with them in earnest, you need to have a safe environment so there are no accidents.

 

By the way, everyplace that I have a baby gate, I have two.  One hangs in the usual position, and one hangs above it, so the two gates together are 6 feet high instead of 3 feet high. That's because Fido can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

 

Most homes are not set up this way, but say you had a living room in the middle of your house and two hallways, one to the master bedroom and another across the living room that goes to the two kids' rooms.  Then you could put up a set of baby gates, stacked so they are 6 feet high, at each hallway.  The living room would be a "No Man's Land," so to speak.  Then, it would be safe to bring Allicks and Gabriel together, with 20 feet between them, to sniff away and realize that they are confronting their nemesis.  But there would be no way they could make contact and draw blood thorugh the baby gate.  That would be safer.  I would love to see you look at your house and figure out a way to set up the environment so you can succeed in the conditioning.  And using leashes alone or one leash and one baby gate would not the right way to do it.  If you've got Allicks lunging on the leash, you've already lost.  What you need to do is set up a safe place for Gabriel, and then figure out exactly how far apart they have to be BEFORE she starts in with the lunging etc.  You've got to have a baseline before you can start making any progress.

 

"The trainer at petsmart was talking about rawhide aggression ~ which is't the case here, Allicks doesn't even like rawhide ~ but the corrections and desensitization was the same. 

 

What do you mean? You either desensitize or you correct, but you don't do both.

 

In order for that to work, I will have to pick up a choke chain as Allicks collar has no effect on her. She is oblivious to everything when in the zone, except kill.  So I think a squirt of water would 'roll' off her back..."

 

I think that you need to know what her boundary is. For example, when you first open her bedroom door, does she zoom out of it, hurdle the baby gate, and scratch at Gabriel's door so she can kill him?  Or, does he have to be outside of his room for her to try to kill him?  What is the Non-Killing-Zone?  Where is she successful at ignoring him? 

 

"Going to petsmart today for rescue & education so I will talk to mamaJoan, Allicks trainer to see what aggression techniques she may havev ...."

 

Good! Ask her if she has any techniques that do not involve punishment.

 

"Thank you so much Andrea for all this! As you might imagine, my life is in a standstill til I get a handle on this ;(   "

 

Yes, I know what you mean.  It's dangerous to be living like this -- not just for you, but for all your other animals, too. 

 

You know, reading through Kellie Snider's procedure reminds me that it would be perfect for you. And you could make incredible strides in just a few hours. But you would have to set up the environment right. 

 

Best of luck and please let me know if you need any help.

 

xoxo

Andrea

 

 

Karen Andy's ^i^ mom <andys_child@...> wrote:

Well, the good news is I was accepted by the group, according to the email, the bad news is it hasn't shown up. I'll work on that tonight.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE FOLLOWING, let's see, I'll do my replies in PINK

Andrea Robinson <andrearobinson93210@...> wrote:

Karen, my replies are in blue below!  And I apologize for being offline for a few days! I do think about you all the time even if I am swamped with craziness over here!

 

Andrea
Thank you for taking this time, Andrea, I really really appreciate it!
Karen Andy's ^i^

Andrea, your reply is so involved and detailed, I am saving to a text file so I can study it.

 

Ha-ha! You flatter me! And here I thought I was just rambling along...Never thought anyone would want to study my "ramblings!"  :)

 

I think Cesar's work points out one deficience of dog 'owners' in that they get bad behaviour from a pup but they have not set limits, they have not set their alpha.

 

Yes, it is SOOO much easier to train them earlier! 

 

I was a cat person forever, and wasn't til Andy left home and I found myself with a totally uncontrollable byproduct of human neglect that I started thinking about training.

 

I agree consistency is KEY, as well as control.  So while I have never needed to use his techniques with my houseful, I now do.

 

I'm not intimately acquainted with everything Cesar does.  I did see part of one of his videos on the Internet and it seemed impressive to me, but I did not see how he gave the "vibes" that he was alpha.  I remember that he was showing a lady how to get her dog to heel, and it really was true that the dog would heel with him, even if he didn't say anything to the dog, and the dog would not heel with the lady and would pull on the leash.  But he didn't really tell her exactly what he was doing and what she was doing wrong.  He just said she had to have the right attitude.

 

He squares his shoulders, breathes deeply, looks straight ahead, never at the dog.  A little bit like Command Performance, you take the lead, never letting the dog get aheada of you, and just walking, expecting the dog to follow.  Dogs pick up on our vibes and when Cesar takes the lead (of course any dog will act better with a stranger than with their moms, same with kids) the dog knows this two-legger is alpha, totally in attitude. This is the amazing aspect that I have really studied. The attitude. It is all in attitude.

 

I think that is one thing that people find problematic with his techniques.  It's not that he doesn't have good control of the dogs, because he does.  But if all you do is tell the person that they have the wrong attitude and they have to be the "alpha," that statement is loose enough that all kinds of people could interpret it different ways.  One person might growl and bare their own teeth at the dog (I was actually told to do this years ago when I first got into dog training -- but I thought that my teeth were too unimpressive so I eventually gave it up).  Anyway, you get the idea.  People could use his statement to really go overboard on the harsh treatment.  As long as you make it clear to Allicks what she needs to do to succeed rather than hammer on what she's doing wrong, she will improve. 

 

I have Dogspeak by Dash somebody, and when JasonDundee was living with me (one tough cookie) I practiced dogspeak, growling (he turned on me twice after his rescue from the crackhouse) and snarling to show him I WAS THE BOSS ~ it's a horrible thing to be afraid your beloved pup will attack you when you are sleeping ~ and while it worked for JasonDundee, I like Cesar's method a whole lot better.

Allicks is very attentive when she is not on kill mode. She is brilliant. And she is a wiggle butt of delight.  This is completely baffling.  They are separated by a baby gate which is coming out of the walls by constant banging on it.  She gets the rumble in her throat when Gabriel is on the other side. She went sailing over it the other night, so I cannot sleep with her not confined to a closed door. I had to change out all my doorknobs because Gabriel can open every door.  Gabriel delights in AmbrrNanaDog and they are precious together. He goes to Petsmart and is LWAR-C spokespup for rescue of lethal whites, and is very socialized (after his first year, when nobody left the house including me, as Andy was dead and my life had basically ended, now we are getting back in the game of life)  He gets along find with other dogs and loves AndiFeralKit.

AllicksBlindPup has had basic obedience, she is extremely intelligent and very high energy. She races through life at 100 mph, but listens to me when I get the 'voice'. 

 

Ha-ha! I can just picture this!

 

I have an 'application' in to the group ... applied and was denied... ?

 

Oh, my gosh! That's no good!  I don't know why they would deny you unless it's because you're not a "professional" dog trainer -- but you do enough rescue/rehab/adopt out work that you qualify, in my opinion!  Anyway, if that's the case, I will just do some cutting and pasting and share with you what I think are the important points.  (Unless they forbid this due to copyright issues ... I'll have to re-read the group rules.)

 

I was emailed I was accepted, but am not a member at the site ?

 

THANK YOU, Christy my cousin who is living here and working with both Allicks & Gabriel (in fact she is the one who touch trained Gabriel) We work with shelter dogs in socializing and play, as well as basic obedience on that odd Saturday when we don't have a milloin other things to do, like tomorrow we are setting up our Petsmart Rescue & Education Booth for LWAR-C.

 

Yes, Christy -- you are a doll! We love you.  :)

 

I have read that if a person backs out of the alpha issue, it will be resolved by itself.

 

What does that mean?  Do you mean the competition for status among the dogs?  It's not always wise to let them "work it out" -- there may be bloodshed, recurring problems, etc.  Remember that families are artificial packs in which neither dog is free to leave.  That can create a pressure cooker.

 

Yes, books recommend letting the dogs work it out, and when humans interfere is when you have problems. This is not an acceptable course of action for Allicks. She MUST have limits and with Gabriel, she would just continue until someone broke it up. He is a sitting duck, so that won't happen. Allicks has challenged Ambrr and I interfered, then let Ambrr put her in her place. And she has challenged Jude, who quickly put her in her place. She leaves them alone now.

 

In my house, there is no issue with Gabriel. He is just oblivious to her and not even near her when she attacks. He is no challenge,

 

Good! I know that he has not been to a formal obedience class -- has he been socialized with other dogs outside the family? 

 

and she certainly cannot see him, being blind. She may know that he is deaf and blind,

 

How does she know when he is around? Do you think it is noises, smells, etc.?  Have you tried any "classical conditioning"?  That just means that you find out how far away from each other they need to be in order to maintain the peace, and then treat both of them everytime they are around each other until they begin to look forward to it (this requires two handlers, of course).  Then you move them in one foot or so.  If they always required 20 feet between them, you wait until they are successfully taking the treats and acting happy 80% of the time at that distance.  Then you can change your distance to 19 feet.

 

We have the baby gate up. But she 'hates' him through the baby gate. I have no idea how she finds him.  As a yuk, I was thinking of scenting the cat,, so when she attacks Gabriel and goes airborne ~ and he goes flying after her at least he has a chance of finding her (they play :)

 

but he stays clear of her.

 

Yeah, I guess he would!  I assume that the only way he can know she is around is by scent ... or vibrations.  It's so interesting.

 

Last night, she came within 3 inches of his behind, Christy had his collar, while I had hers. And the low rumblel which precedes an all out attack came from her throat. STRONG correction with collar and off to the bedroom where she lives.

 

So I would suggest controlling their movements so they are never beyond their threshold of success until you've had a chance to do the classical conditioning.

 

Classical conditioning (as I understand it) just means that when two events occur together all the time, you begin to expect one of those events to happen anytime the other happens.  It can be good or bad associations.  For example, if everytime I walk to the store, a car drives by and splashes water on me, I start to expect it and take measures to prevent getting splashed.  Or, if everytime I'm around a cute male and he says nice, flirty things to me, I try to spend more time with him.  It takes time.  If you punish one of the dogs when the other is around, they may start to association the presence of the other dog as a precursor to being punished.

 

The trainer at petsmart was talking about rawhide aggression ~ which is't the case here, Allicks doesn't even like rawhide ~ but the corrections and desensitization was the same.  In order for that to work, I will have to pick up a choke chain as Allicks collar has no effect on her. She is oblivious to everything when in the zone, except kill.  So I think a squirt of water would 'roll' off her back...

 

She will have to go back downstairs which I HATE, because she so loves people. But she cannot continue to live in a bedroom.

 

Why? Is he in the bedroom, too? 

No he gets the front of the house, she gets the back... Never the twain shall meet, and as she can jump the baby gate, she has to go behind a door that he cannot open... I don't trust her. At all. Not for a moment :(

 

Going to petsmart today for rescue & education so I will talk to mamaJoan, Allicks trainer to see what aggression techniques she may havev ....

 

Looking forward to hearing more.  You're on the right track. Keep it up!

Andrea

Thank you so much Andrea for all this! As you might imagine, my life is in a standstill til I get a handle on this ;(

mom <andys_child@...> wrote:

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Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

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http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

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out

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

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Hooo, been a long day. I am saving all this to review, and if ANY one has ideas on stopping a blindpup from brutally attacking a deafblindpup, I would love to hear it.  I will try the desensitization, which basically entails two people holdling the dogs within smelling distance and going from there. I really am not looking for ward to that. I also need to get Allicks a muzzle before I do this.

Andrea Robinson <andrearobinson93210@...> wrote:

Hey, glad you were accepted to the group!  Let me know when you finally get in all the way. 

 

Well, this is getting quite psychedelic, so I'm going to excerpt things to respond to.

 

By the way, it looks like you did not cc the rest of the group on this ... I don't know if anyone is interested, but I sure try to include them if I can. Figure they can always delete if not interested!

 

"He squares his shoulders, breathes deeply, looks straight ahead, never at the dog.  A little bit like Command Performance, you take the lead, never letting the dog get aheada of you, and just walking, expecting the dog to follow.  Dogs pick up on our vibes and when Cesar takes the lead (of course any dog will act better with a stranger than with their moms, same with kids) the dog knows this two-legger is alpha, totally in attitude. This is the amazing aspect that I have really studied. The attitude. It is all in attitude."

 

Well, I think attitude is a good part of it.  But I also think that if you're using an artificial "attitude" that you will slip out of it once in awhile, especially if you're tired, and then what happens?  I like the postive-based training because you don't have to aspire to be anyone that you aren't already.  Maybe it will work with Allicks because she is already used to the "attitude" and you've just slacked off of her so she has taken advantage of it.  But that's why I don't like having to have a certain attitude because eventually I will get a fever or experience a tragedy and I will not be able to keep up a front with my dogs.  The way it is now, if I'm in a down place in my life, the dogs behave just as well as they do when I'm up.  I'm not familiar with Command Performance.  I'll have to look into it.

 

I think there are two huge schools of dog training -- one, the militaristic kind, and I remember this English lady that used to be on TV when I was much younger.   When she said "Heel," the dogs snapped into position.  I think they knew that it was just a game, though, because I think they adored her.  I think that people have mistaken the discipline part as the part that the dogs love, while I think that the dogs are willing to put up with the discipline because they know that underneath it all, the owner/handler loves them.

 

Think back to all the bosses you've had in your life.  Do you ever remember having a boss that was very concerned about making sure everybody remembered that he was in charge?  He might have told you what you did wrong, and he might have even praised you, but he was always officious and let you know that you were a peon, so even though you worked well for him, you didn't like him. Then think about a boss that really cared about you and let you know it.  He may have had to tell you when you were doing something wrong, but you knew he cared about the company AND you.  How did you work for him?  I have had a few bosses that I would basically walk through fire for.  But not most of them.

 

I think that if Cesar has this "attitude" that he's the "boss," he is also doing something that lets the dogs know that he cares about them.  Otherwise they wouldn't follow him.  Does he ever tell you about this part of the attitude?

 

 

"I have Dogspeak by Dash somebody, and when JasonDundee was living with me (one tough cookie) I practiced dogspeak, growling (he turned on me twice after his rescue from the crackhouse) and snarling to show him I WAS THE BOSS ~ it's a horrible thing to be afraid your beloved pup will attack you when you are sleeping ~ and while it worked for JasonDundee, I like Cesar's method a whole lot better."

I wish I knew more about Cesar's technique.  I can infer from what you're saying that he doesn't bare his teeth and growl at the dogs!! I'm glad that the Dogspeak worked for JasonDundee. 

 

I am convinced that dogs will respond to and put up with all kinds of crazy s**t that we humans hand them.  That doesn't mean that we're doing something "right," but that the dogs really do a lot to accommodate us.  But who knows?  I wasn't there and if you got JasonDundee to back off, it must have been a blessing. 

 

A superstitious belief is when you link something that isn't linked in "real life."  For example, pretend I read in a dog training book that I should always wear pink underpants when I train my dog and they will respond better.  Well, armed with the knowledge that I am doing the right thing, I might just do other things that the dogs really do respond to because I'm more confident.  The trouble is that we never know what superstitions we have.  We all have them.

 

Suppose you bared your teeth at JasonDundee and he was so shocked that he backed off.  Then suppose that your whole body relaxed and you felt better because you had such good effect with baring your teeth.  And suppose that the dog noticed that you were more relaxed, calm, and confident, and that's what really changed him over time.  Well, you would never know, would you? You might have gotten the same results by just clapping your hands instead of baring your teeth.

 

I'm not saying that that's what happened in your case.  I'm just trying to explain the nature of superstitions.

 

I think that one superstition I had was that clicker training was everything.  Shortly after getting my foster dog, Paco, I regretted getting rid of all my choke collars.  That's because I was not exactly starting from scratch with Paco and perhaps he'd had other trainers jerk on his collar and he had been conditioned only to pay attention to leash corrections.  None of the other gestures, verbiage, etc., meant a darn thing to him.  I now think that when you're rehabbing a dog, you've got to start wherever you start, but that the goal should be to get them onto a positive training regimen as soon as possible.

Let's face it; even the old Kohler (leash correction) training is positive to a dog in that he's getting attention!  That's something that they really want!  Not the only thing, but they will put up with an awful lot of mistakes on our part if we are giving them attention.  A few dogs, however, will become more violent if we use the wrong techniques on them.  They just can't handle the violence.  If they don't turn on us, they get more jittery and start turning on their pack-mates instead. 

 

"Yes, books recommend letting the dogs work it out, and when humans interfere is when you have problems. This is not an acceptable course of action for Allicks. She MUST have limits and with Gabriel, she would just continue until someone broke it up. He is a sitting duck, so that won't happen. Allicks has challenged Ambrr and I interfered, then let Ambrr put her in her place. And she has challenged Jude, who quickly put her in her place. She leaves them alone now."

 

Okay, I thought that's what you meant.  Yes, I've heard the conventional wisdom that it's best to just let them work it out, and honestly, that will work fine for many situations.  That doesn't mean it's a good technique, because the conventional wisdom may be superstitious. In other words, it worked many, many times, so it was concluded that that was the "right" or "best" thing to do. 

 

But if you've ever had a blood-bath in your home you will think twice about the conventional wisdom.  This wisdom also forgets that we force these dogs to stay together, and they are not related and they don't know each other from birth the way real packs do.  So, again, I would think that like baring your teeth and doing alpha rolls, it works so well for so many dogs that we think it's a good technique.  But the one time it doesn't work, you will be so sorry.  I'm sure that a person who has done successful alpha rolls for 15 years would be completely shocked to have a dog bite her in the face.  When she gets out of the hospital, she will say that the dog has to be euthanized because he is no good.  But it never occurs to her that there might be better ways to handle situations than doing alpha rolls.  That is the power of superstition.

 

Anyway, how did I get back on that again?

 

I see that the leave-'em-alone technique worked with all the other dogs, but it doesn't work with Allicks and Gabriel.  I think that classical conditioning would work for these guys, but you would have to start by setting up the environment right.

 

"We have the baby gate up. But she 'hates' him through the baby gate. I have no idea how she finds him." 

 

So the baby gate, alone, is not enough to be successful.  Before you start working with them in earnest, you need to have a safe environment so there are no accidents.

 

By the way, everyplace that I have a baby gate, I have two.  One hangs in the usual position, and one hangs above it, so the two gates together are 6 feet high instead of 3 feet high. That's because Fido can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

 

Most homes are not set up this way, but say you had a living room in the middle of your house and two hallways, one to the master bedroom and another across the living room that goes to the two kids' rooms.  Then you could put up a set of baby gates, stacked so they are 6 feet high, at each hallway.  The living room would be a "No Man's Land," so to speak.  Then, it would be safe to bring Allicks and Gabriel together, with 20 feet between them, to sniff away and realize that they are confronting their nemesis.  But there would be no way they could make contact and draw blood thorugh the baby gate.  That would be safer.  I would love to see you look at your house and figure out a way to set up the environment so you can succeed in the conditioning.  And using leashes alone or one leash and one baby gate would not the right way to do it.  If you've got Allicks lunging on the leash, you've already lost.  What you need to do is set up a safe place for Gabriel, and then figure out exactly how far apart they have to be BEFORE she starts in with the lunging etc.  You've got to have a baseline before you can start making any progress.

 

"The trainer at petsmart was talking about rawhide aggression ~ which is't the case here, Allicks doesn't even like rawhide ~ but the corrections and desensitization was the same. 

 

What do you mean? You either desensitize or you correct, but you don't do both.

 

In order for that to work, I will have to pick up a choke chain as Allicks collar has no effect on her. She is oblivious to everything when in the zone, except kill.  So I think a squirt of water would 'roll' off her back..."

 

I think that you need to know what her boundary is. For example, when you first open her bedroom door, does she zoom out of it, hurdle the baby gate, and scratch at Gabriel's door so she can kill him?  Or, does he have to be outside of his room for her to try to kill him?  What is the Non-Killing-Zone?  Where is she successful at ignoring him? 

 

"Going to petsmart today for rescue & education so I will talk to mamaJoan, Allicks trainer to see what aggression techniques she may havev ...."

 

Good! Ask her if she has any techniques that do not involve punishment.

 

"Thank you so much Andrea for all this! As you might imagine, my life is in a standstill til I get a handle on this ;(   "

 

Yes, I know what you mean.  It's dangerous to be living like this -- not just for you, but for all your other animals, too. 

 

You know, reading through Kellie Snider's procedure reminds me that it would be perfect for you. And you could make incredible strides in just a few hours. But you would have to set up the environment right. 

 

Best of luck and please let me know if you need any help.

 

xoxo

Andrea

 

 

Karen Andy's ^i^ mom <andys_child@...> wrote:

Well, the good news is I was accepted by the group, according to the email, the bad news is it hasn't shown up. I'll work on that tonight.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE FOLLOWING, let's see, I'll do my replies in PINK

Andrea Robinson <andrearobinson93210@...> wrote:

Karen, my replies are in blue below!  And I apologize for being offline for a few days! I do think about you all the time even if I am swamped with craziness over here!

 

Andrea
Thank you for taking this time, Andrea, I really really appreciate it!
Karen Andy's ^i^

Andrea, your reply is so involved and detailed, I am saving to a text file so I can study it.

 

Ha-ha! You flatter me! And here I thought I was just rambling along...Never thought anyone would want to study my "ramblings!"  :)

 

I think Cesar's work points out one deficience of dog 'owners' in that they get bad behaviour from a pup but they have not set limits, they have not set their alpha.

 

Yes, it is SOOO much easier to train them earlier! 

 

I was a cat person forever, and wasn't til Andy left home and I found myself with a totally uncontrollable byproduct of human neglect that I started thinking about training.

 

I agree consistency is KEY, as well as control.  So while I have never needed to use his techniques with my houseful, I now do.

 

I'm not intimately acquainted with everything Cesar does.  I did see part of one of his videos on the Internet and it seemed impressive to me, but I did not see how he gave the "vibes" that he was alpha.  I remember that he was showing a lady how to get her dog to heel, and it really was true that the dog would heel with him, even if he didn't say anything to the dog, and the dog would not heel with the lady and would pull on the leash.  But he didn't really tell her exactly what he was doing and what she was doing wrong.  He just said she had to have the right attitude.

 

He squares his shoulders, breathes deeply, looks straight ahead, never at the dog.  A little bit like Command Performance, you take the lead, never letting the dog get aheada of you, and just walking, expecting the dog to follow.  Dogs pick up on our vibes and when Cesar takes the lead (of course any dog will act better with a stranger than with their moms, same with kids) the dog knows this two-legger is alpha, totally in attitude. This is the amazing aspect that I have really studied. The attitude. It is all in attitude.

 

I think that is one thing that people find problematic with his techniques.  It's not that he doesn't have good control of the dogs, because he does.  But if all you do is tell the person that they have the wrong attitude and they have to be the "alpha," that statement is loose enough that all kinds of people could interpret it different ways.  One person might growl and bare their own teeth at the dog (I was actually told to do this years ago when I first got into dog training -- but I thought that my teeth were too unimpressive so I eventually gave it up).  Anyway, you get the idea.  People could use his statement to really go overboard on the harsh treatment.  As long as you make it clear to Allicks what she needs to do to succeed rather than hammer on what she's doing wrong, she will improve. 

 

I have Dogspeak by Dash somebody, and when JasonDundee was living with me (one tough cookie) I practiced dogspeak, growling (he turned on me twice after his rescue from the crackhouse) and snarling to show him I WAS THE BOSS ~ it's a horrible thing to be afraid your beloved pup will attack you when you are sleeping ~ and while it worked for JasonDundee, I like Cesar's method a whole lot better.

Allicks is very attentive when she is not on kill mode. She is brilliant. And she is a wiggle butt of delight.  This is completely baffling.  They are separated by a baby gate which is coming out of the walls by constant banging on it.  She gets the rumble in her throat when Gabriel is on the other side. She went sailing over it the other night, so I cannot sleep with her not confined to a closed door. I had to change out all my doorknobs because Gabriel can open every door.  Gabriel delights in AmbrrNanaDog and they are precious together. He goes to Petsmart and is LWAR-C spokespup for rescue of lethal whites, and is very socialized (after his first year, when nobody left the house including me, as Andy was dead and my life had basically ended, now we are getting back in the game of life)  He gets along find with other dogs and loves AndiFeralKit.

AllicksBlindPup has had basic obedience, she is extremely intelligent and very high energy. She races through life at 100 mph, but listens to me when I get the 'voice'. 

 

Ha-ha! I can just picture this!

 

I have an 'application' in to the group ... applied and was denied... ?

 

Oh, my gosh! That's no good!  I don't know why they would deny you unless it's because you're not a "professional" dog trainer -- but you do enough rescue/rehab/adopt out work that you qualify, in my opinion!  Anyway, if that's the case, I will just do some cutting and pasting and share with you what I think are the important points.  (Unless they forbid this due to copyright issues ... I'll have to re-read the group rules.)

 

I was emailed I was accepted, but am not a member at the site ?

 

THANK YOU, Christy my cousin who is living here and working with both Allicks & Gabriel (in fact she is the one who touch trained Gabriel) We work with shelter dogs in socializing and play, as well as basic obedience on that odd Saturday when we don't have a milloin other things to do, like tomorrow we are setting up our Petsmart Rescue & Education Booth for LWAR-C.

 

Yes, Christy -- you are a doll! We love you.  :)

 

I have read that if a person backs out of the alpha issue, it will be resolved by itself.

 

What does that mean?  Do you mean the competition for status among the dogs?  It's not always wise to let them "work it out" -- there may be bloodshed, recurring problems, etc.  Remember that families are artificial packs in which neither dog is free to leave.  That can create a pressure cooker.

 

Yes, books recommend letting the dogs work it out, and when humans interfere is when you have problems. This is not an acceptable course of action for Allicks. She MUST have limits and with Gabriel, she would just continue until someone broke it up. He is a sitting duck, so that won't happen. Allicks has challenged Ambrr and I interfered, then let Ambrr put her in her place. And she has challenged Jude, who quickly put her in her place. She leaves them alone now.

 

In my house, there is no issue with Gabriel. He is just oblivious to her and not even near her when she attacks. He is no challenge,

 

Good! I know that he has not been to a formal obedience class -- has he been socialized with other dogs outside the family? 

 

and she certainly cannot see him, being blind. She may know that he is deaf and blind,

 

How does she know when he is around? Do you think it is noises, smells, etc.?  Have you tried any "classical conditioning"?  That just means that you find out how far away from each other they need to be in order to maintain the peace, and then treat both of them everytime they are around each other until they begin to look forward to it (this requires two handlers, of course).  Then you move them in one foot or so.  If they always required 20 feet between them, you wait until they are successfully taking the treats and acting happy 80% of the time at that distance.  Then you can change your distance to 19 feet.

 

We have the baby gate up. But she 'hates' him through the baby gate. I have no idea how she finds him.  As a yuk, I was thinking of scenting the cat,, so when she attacks Gabriel and goes airborne ~ and he goes flying after her at least he has a chance of finding her (they play :)

 

but he stays clear of her.

 

Yeah, I guess he would!  I assume that the only way he can know she is around is by scent ... or vibrations.  It's so interesting.

 

Last night, she came within 3 inches of his behind, Christy had his collar, while I had hers. And the low rumblel which precedes an all out attack came from her throat. STRONG correction with collar and off to the bedroom where she lives.

 

So I would suggest controlling their movements so they are never beyond their threshold of success until you've had a chance to do the classical conditioning.

 

Classical conditioning (as I understand it) just means that when two events occur together all the time, you begin to expect one of those events to happen anytime the other happens.  It can be good or bad associations.  For example, if everytime I walk to the store, a car drives by and splashes water on me, I start to expect it and take measures to prevent getting splashed.  Or, if everytime I'm around a cute male and he says nice, flirty things to me, I try to spend more time with him.  It takes time.  If you punish one of the dogs when the other is around, they may start to association the presence of the other dog as a precursor to being punished.

 

The trainer at petsmart was talking about rawhide aggression ~ which is't the case here, Allicks doesn't even like rawhide ~ but the corrections and desensitization was the same.  In order for that to work, I will have to pick up a choke chain as Allicks collar has no effect on her. She is oblivious to everything when in the zone, except kill.  So I think a squirt of water would 'roll' off her back...

 

She will have to go back downstairs which I HATE, because she so loves people. But she cannot continue to live in a bedroom.

 

Why? Is he in the bedroom, too? 

No he gets the front of the house, she gets the back... Never the twain shall meet, and as she can jump the baby gate, she has to go behind a door that he cannot open... I don't trust her. At all. Not for a moment :(

 

Going to petsmart today for rescue & education so I will talk to mamaJoan, Allicks trainer to see what aggression techniques she may havev ....

 

Looking forward to hearing more.  You're on the right track. Keep it up!

Andrea

Thank you so much Andrea for all this! As you might imagine, my life is in a standstill til I get a handle on this ;(

mom <andys_child@...> wrote:

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

Andrea, your reply is so involved and detailed, I am saving to a text file so I can study it.

 

Ha-ha! You flatter me! And here I thought I was just rambling along...Never thought anyone would want to study my "ramblings!"  :)

 

I think Cesar's work points out one deficience of dog 'owners' in that they get bad behaviour from a pup but they have not set limits, they have not set their alpha.

 

Yes, it is SOOO much easier to train them earlier! 

 

I agree consistency is KEY, as well as control.  So while I have never needed to use his techniques with my houseful, I now do.

 

I'm not intimately acquainted with everything Cesar does.  I did see part of one of his videos on the Internet and it seemed impressive to me, but I did not see how he gave the "vibes" that he was alpha.  I remember that he was showing a lady how to get her dog to heel, and it really was true that the dog would heel with him, even if he didn't say anything to the dog, and the dog would not heel with the lady and would pull on the leash.  But he didn't really tell her exactly what he was doing and what she was doing wrong.  He just said she had to have the right attitude.

 

I think that is one thing that people find problematic with his techniques.  It's not that he doesn't have good control of the dogs, because he does.  But if all you do is tell the person that they have the wrong attitude and they have to be the "alpha," that statement is loose enough that all kinds of people could interpret it different ways.  One person might growl and bare their own teeth at the dog (I was actually told to do this years ago when I first got into dog training -- but I thought that my teeth were too unimpressive so I eventually gave it up).  Anyway, you get the idea.  People could use his statement to really go overboard on the harsh treatment.  As long as you make it clear to Allicks what she needs to do to succeed rather than hammer on what she's doing wrong, she will improve. 

 

AllicksBlindPup has had basic obedience, she is extremely intelligent and very high energy. She races through life at 100 mph, but listens to me when I get the 'voice'. 

 

Ha-ha! I can just picture this!

 

I have an 'application' in to the group ... applied and was denied... ?

 

Oh, my gosh! That's no good!  I don't know why they would deny you unless it's because you're not a "professional" dog trainer -- but you do enough rescue/rehab/adopt out work that you qualify, in my opinion!  Anyway, if that's the case, I will just do some cutting and pasting and share with you what I think are the important points.  (Unless they forbid this due to copyright issues ... I'll have to re-read the group rules.)

 

THANK YOU, Christy my cousin who is living here and working with both Allicks & Gabriel (in fact she is the one who touch trained Gabriel) We work with shelter dogs in socializing and play, as well as basic obedience on that odd Saturday when we don't have a milloin other things to do, like tomorrow we are setting up our Petsmart Rescue & Education Booth for LWAR-C.

 

Yes, Christy -- you are a doll! We love you.  :)

 

I have read that if a person backs out of the alpha issue, it will be resolved by itself.

 

What does that mean?  Do you mean the competition for status among the dogs?  It's not always wise to let them "work it out" -- there may be bloodshed, recurring problems, etc.  Remember that families are artificial packs in which neither dog is free to leave.  That can create a pressure cooker.

 

In my house, there is no issue with Gabriel. He is just oblivious to her and not even near her when she attacks. He is no challenge,

 

Good! I know that he has not been to a formal obedience class -- has he been socialized with other dogs outside the family? 

 

and she certainly cannot see him, being blind. She may know that he is deaf and blind,

 

How does she know when he is around? Do you think it is noises, smells, etc.?  Have you tried any "classical conditioning"?  That just means that you find out how far away from each other they need to be in order to maintain the peace, and then treat both of them everytime they are around each other until they begin to look forward to it (this requires two handlers, of course).  Then you move them in one foot or so.  If they always required 20 feet between them, you wait until they are successfully taking the treats and acting happy 80% of the time at that distance.  Then you can change your distance to 19 feet.

 

but he stays clear of her.

 

Yeah, I guess he would!  I assume that the only way he can know she is around is by scent ... or vibrations.  It's so interesting.

 

Last night, she came within 3 inches of his behind, Christy had his collar, while I had hers. And the low rumblel which precedes an all out attack came from her throat. STRONG correction with collar and off to the bedroom where she lives.

 

So I would suggest controlling their movements so they are never beyond their threshold of success until you've had a chance to do the classical conditioning.

 

Classical conditioning (as I understand it) just means that when two events occur together all the time, you begin to expect one of those events to happen anytime the other happens.  It can be good or bad associations.  For example, if everytime I walk to the store, a car drives by and splashes water on me, I start to expect it and take measures to prevent getting splashed.  Or, if everytime I'm around a cute male and he says nice, flirty things to me, I try to spend more time with him.  It takes time.  If you punish one of the dogs when the other is around, they may start to association the presence of the other dog as a precursor to being punished.

 

She will have to go back downstairs which I HATE, because she so loves people. But she cannot continue to live in a bedroom.

 

Why? Is he in the bedroom, too? 

 

Looking forward to hearing more.  You're on the right track. Keep it up!

Andrea

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

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Norma Jeanne Laurette <2puppypower@rogers.com> wrote:

From: "Norma Jeanne Laurette" <2puppypower@rogers.com>
To: <andys_child@yahoo.com>
Subject: IPDTA Yahoo Group
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:07:37 -0400

Hi,

 

I received your request to join the IPDTA email group.  Unfortunately, this group is exclusive to IPDTA members only.  For more information about becoming a member visit our website at www.ipdta.org.  Have a terrific day!

 

Norma Jeanne Laurette
Puppy Power Training & Behaviour Therapy
Canine Communication Studies Inc. Career Courses
International Positive Dog Training Association Chair
www.dogtrainingcareers.com
www.ipdta.org
HAPPINESS IS A CHOICE!!!

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

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Andrea, I have decided to use Cesar's methods with AllicksBlindPUp. I have not up til now, as when they are separated there is no issue. She is delightful and silly. But life is in turmoil. So we started last night, when training is in gear, no lovey dove, silliness. Firm commands, 'barking' on my part so she knows no nonsense will be tolerated.  I have her FULL attention when I am in 'gear'.  So I'll go out this weekend and get the 'collar' (I hate this, but I have no choice) and will begin her desensitization, or if that doesn't work, then major corrections... I'll keep you all up to date.  I posted privately to Andrea on this, but Andrea, you can certainly share with the group...

WISH ME LUCK ALL YALL :)

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

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