---

From: Beth <hrwest2001@...>
To: Andrea Robinson <andreadogtrainer@...>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:37:41 PM
Subject: Re:Need help with the puppy........... (long response)

Hi Andrea and Karen,

Thank you both for your responses. I have tried to pass on some of the
information to my boss's wife who will be the main care giver.
Unfortunately the email that I sent her so that she would have it in
writing to refer back to has not even been opened. (we use the same
computer and she left her email box open the other day and that was
the one and only email that I sent her). I am in a position where it
is difficult to interfere. This family is nuts. My boss started
feeding the puppy bits of food off of his plate so of course now she
begs and barks when he is eating, so now he is using a waggly finger,
aggressive voice and tap on the nose to try to stop the behavior he
created and that I told him would happen. Last night when he used his
techniques and I dared to say anything he shot back with it is his way
of doing things and his way always works. (His Maltese King Tut peed
all over the place, begged for food constantly and had many bad
behaviors even though he was a very sweet boy. (totally neglected most
of the time though with little if any vet care, and almost zero
grooming till he got so dirty that my boss's wife could not stand it
and would bath him.)

Stanley Coren is from my neck of the woods on the west coast. I think
I have all of his books and I watched his television program as often
as possible. I really like his positive approach to things.

I hate to say it, but I am in a position where there is little more I
can do for this puppy so I am trying to just withdraw. I made sure she
got the vet care when her leg was broken and tried to talk some common
sense into these two people. My boss is a bully and I will soon be
free of this situation which means leaving the puppy behind. I feel
like I have failed this little girl terribly.

--- In clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Robinson
<andreadogtrainer@...> wrote:
>
> There are a couple of problems associated with using punishment to
teach a puppy not to bite.  The first problem is that it's
unnecessary.  I know that we've all been taught over and over and over
that we should hit a puppy with our fingers, newspapers, etc., but
it's unnecessary, and whenever you punish a puppy unnecessarily, you
reduce the amount of trust that the puppy has for you, and that's a
ghost that can haunt you for the rest of your life.  A lot of people
think, "My dog's just not that smart because he can't do
such-and-so."  But when somebody else works with that dog, he does it
and does it well.  That's because a dog that has experienced corporal
punishment as a training method will not be as willing to try new
things and will not throw himself into a tough learning problem with
the same enthusiasm.
>
> Everything we teach a dog modifies his basic instincts.  To get a
dog to trust you instead of trusting his basic instincts is a process
called conditioning.  If a dog wants to bark and lunge at the mailman
and you want him to sit quietly and wait for the mailman to pass, you
must condition the dog. 
>
> Think of jumping out of an airplane to go skydiving or to perform a
military operation.  Do your instincts tell you to jump, or have you
already been conditioned to trust the pilot, jumpmaster, parachute,
parachute packers, and/or commanders?  Sometimes you can get someone
to jump out of fear, but it's actually less damaging to the person to
use conditioning.  For example, you can do practice parachute rolls,
have classes, make tandem jumps, use a drag line (I forget what they
really call it) that opens his chute for him the first few times,
etc.  Each element builds a net of trust so that the parachutist is
jumping into a net of trust rather than jumping for fear of retaliation.
>
> In Roman times, the soldiers had to fight because they knew they
would be murdered by the commander if they didn't.  So that works,
too.  But which way do you prefer for teaching your dog? It's a matter
of personal choice.
>
> The Monks of New Skete used to recommend alpha rolls (where you roll
the puppy onto its back to punish unwanted behavior), but came out
against them later and said that they wished they had never done so. 
I believe that Jan Fennell addresses this in her book, The Dog
Whisperer, and I know for sure that Roger Abrantes explains it in Dog
Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior. 
>
> By the way, gently rolling your puppy onto his back during cuddle
time or to do a temperament test is NOT the same as an alpha roll,
which is swift, powerful, and forced on the dog.
>
> As Roger Abrantes explains, most people are a little confused about
the timing and purpose of the alpha roll.  While they constantly see
dogs on their backs while playing or fighting with another dog, they
generally fail to notice that one dog has chosen to roll over on his
back -- the so-called alpha did not force him to roll over. 
>
> Abrantes goes on to explain that once in awhile an alpha dog will,
indeed, roll another dog onto his back.  But when he does so, he kills
that dog.  Most dog conflicts, even the ones that look absolutely
horrific and spill blood, never get to this point.  While a lot of
damage might be done during a dog fight, it is generally surface
damage and not life-threatening.  That is because all leaders realize
that killing another pack mate during a dispute is a waste of a
hunting partner.  The alpha would have to be on his last nerve to
actually perform an alpha roll, and it is meant to be lethal. 
>
> So if you want your puppy to be absolutely petrified that you will
kill it, please by all means use alpha rolls.  What might be even
worse is performing an alpha roll and not following through by killing
your puppy.  This might just teach the puppy that you are an
ineffective leader incapable of truly following through with the
designated discipline.
>
> Don't get me wrong: I'm sure that millions of people have performed
alpha rolls and not damaged their animals for life.  It is truly
amazing how much bungling on our part dogs can handle without becoming
completely psychotic.  While they have no way to physically speak
words to us in our language, we are capable of studying and learning
their body language.  So it would seem in our better interest to
actually study and learn, knowing that bridging the communication gap
is a huge part of getting the dog to obey.  How can we punish a dog
for a behavior that might actually be meant to communicate something
to us?
>
> I was in the shelter one time and saw a dog raise its paw and touch
the leg of the lady that was adopting it.  The lady promptly
reprimanded the dog and smacked it lightly a few times.  Alarmed, I
told the lady that the dog was trying to tell her something and showed
her how to teach the dog to keep all four paws on the floor.  She was
completely disgusted and gave me a murder one look.  This lady, this
angel who was adopting the dog and saving its life, had completely
ignored the point that the raised paw is a reconciliatory gesture. The
dog was trying to defer to her, "make nice" to her, yet she was
punishing it for doing so.  It made me sick to my stomach, but I had
to butt out and realize that this lady did not ask for my advice and
did not want it. Chances are, the adoption will take and the dog will
live happily ever after.  What a shame that the dog will be
misunderstood a good deal of the time for its whole life. 
>
> Let's learn about body language so we stop making the mistakes that
make our dogs miserable.  Do you want to read an excellent book on
body language?  I suggest How to Speak Dog by Stanley Coren.
>
> I'm glad that Karen's experience with trying the alpha roll went
well.  For most families, it will probably go fine.  It doesn't teach
the dog what you WANT it to do in a given situation -- only
instruction can do that.  Punishment can only deter a dog from
exhibiting unwanted behavior. 
>
> I like to teach the dogs what to do and reinforce them for doing the
right thing.  It is faster than punishing unwanted behavior and then
trying to go back later and teach them what you want them to do.  But
people have been punishing their dogs since time immemorial, and it
works to deter behavior. I taught people how to punish their dogs with
leash corrections for many years, and it really does work.  But when
you start learning how to reinforce your dog with positive
reinforcement, you can get your dog to do anything it is capable of
learning.  Go to www.dogdance.net and click on English, and click on
Video Clips and you will see what I mean.
>
> I want to make it clear that this in no way is meant to be a rail
against Karen.  She has an amazing ability to train animals and has
proven it time after time after time. She's a humane person that loves
everybody and shares her love generously.  Her use of the rap on the
nose and the alpha roll worked great in this one situation, and she
pours all kinds of time and attention on her dogs other than
punishment.  Maybe that is the key.  She works with them often and
showers all kinds of praise on them, so they are not getting a steady
diet of punishment, punishment, punishment. 
>
> Many people who use punishment are not this even-handed.  For
example, someone might scream, "SHUT UP!!" at their dogs and the dogs
will be so startled that they really do shut up for a little while. 
But then they get right back into the barking.  So the person repeats
the screaming, and the dogs quiet down for awhile and then start up
again.  I feel that punishment actually becomes addicting to the
punisher because it seems to work so well in the short run.  But for
those of us who rehabilitate dogs, we see how just a few simple
lessons can help the dog's "light bulb" go off and how
good behavior becomes very consistent after that.  In fact, the dogs
welcome the knowledge of what they are supposed to do. They are
relieved because they are no longer afraid, and they are more
confident because they are competent and they know it.
>
> Karen also said, "you can reinforce her good (non-biting) behaviour
with the click and she will learn when she stops biting that is a GOOD
thing ..."  Actually, I never suggested that you allow your puppy to
bite you and wait until she stops and then click-and-treat.  I'm glad
that Karen brought this up in case anyone else did not understand my
recipe for stopping the play-biting.  If you feel teeth on your skin,
I suggest that you yelp while moving your hand away immediately.  Then
you freeze in position, safely, and gradually unfreeze and return to
the puppy calmly.
>
> The yelping lets your puppy know that biting hurts; moving your hand
away and removing eye contact and playtime is equivalent to taking
away something that the puppy wants; and returning only very slowly
and calmly is body language for, "Is it safe to play with you again?" 
Puppies tend to understand all this because there are no words (human
language) and you are speaking to the puppy in the only language it
understands (body language).  You never allow a puppy to simply
continue biting you until she feels like stopping, and then click and
treat.  That would be equivalent to reinforcing the puppy for biting.
>
> Thanks so much for reading this lengthy email and I hope it provides
food for thought.  And thank you, Karen, for clapping the other hand. 
We really need to hear all points of view so that we can understand
all sides of the issue.
>
> :)
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Andy's ^i^ mom <andys_child@...>
> To: clicker-training-video@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 2:31:14 AM
> Subject: [clicker-training-video] Re:Need help with the puppy...........
>
>
>
> Beth, AmbrrNanaDog was a real biter as a puppy.  She's a shelter
alumni, so who knows her history.  She is THE BEST dog on the planet
(next to Gabriel, of course) and I stopped her biting by circling her
snout with my fingers and one finger across snout in a tap, with NO
BITING. 
>
> When she would go crazy aggressive, I would roll her onto her back
(she was probably under 8 weeks) and I have to tell you she went
fromthe worst wild child to the best behaved hand command trained dog. 
>
> As Andrea will weigh in, you can reinforce her good (non-biting)
behaviour with the click and she will learn when she stops biting that
is a GOOD thing and hopefully will get into the 'please the human'
frame of mind.  Most dogs crave our love and approval, and that is the
greatest motivator, love and happiness. 
> As my NanaDog will tell you, when Mama aint happy aint nobody happy :)
>
>
>
>
> Karen Anderson
> Andy's ^i^Mom
> http://www.andrewke ithanderson. tvheaven. com/
> Lethal White Aussie Rescue
> http://www.s8. createphpbb. com/lethalwhitea uss/
>