Well, I am so excited to learn some new techniques. 

As far as Cesar is concerned, I live an alpha attitude. I grew into it years ago. My dogs look to me if they need to be 'on guard' or afraid, or calm.  I have always maintained an alpha aura and my dogs are the most loved, pampered pups on the planet, but they respect me totally. Even Allicks, except when she is in the zone.  I say NO, and everyone stops what they are doing, and get a look in their eyes, like, OH NO, WHAT DID I DO?  Why, Because they live to please me.  My love for them and my delight in them is their motivator. They are not 'afraid' of me, but they are afraid to upset me, because then I am not the tender lovin mama they adore, I am a taskmaster, who will with a stern word, firmly tell them NO.  When mama mad, aint nobody happy.

But I am stymied by Allicks. I have NO idea why this has started and why it continues. No baby gate is trusted, especially when I sleep. She is behind the bedroom door with me. I was terribly apprehensive taking her to petsmart last weekend, but it went well. She did not go into the zone with any strange dogs, altho I did not allow any dog to really approach her and kept my ear open for the rumble which preceeds the attack. I am clueless. She only does this with Gabriel.

So I did not get the choke collar today, was so busy trying to rescue a highway dog and do the rescue booth.

 

Hooo, been a long day. I am saving all this to review, and if ANY one has ideas on stopping a blindpup from brutally attacking a deafblindpup, I would love to hear it.  I will try the desensitization, which basically entails two people holdling the dogs within smelling distance and going from there. I really am not looking for ward to that. I also need to get Allicks a muzzle before I do this.

Andrea Robinson <andrearobinson93210@...> wrote:

Hey, glad you were accepted to the group!  Let me know when you finally get in all the way. 

 

Well, this is getting quite psychedelic, so I'm going to excerpt things to respond to.

 

By the way, it looks like you did not cc the rest of the group on this ... I don't know if anyone is interested, but I sure try to include them if I can. Figure they can always delete if not interested!

 

"He squares his shoulders, breathes deeply, looks straight ahead, never at the dog.  A little bit like Command Performance, you take the lead, never letting the dog get aheada of you, and just walking, expecting the dog to follow.  Dogs pick up on our vibes and when Cesar takes the lead (of course any dog will act better with a stranger than with their moms, same with kids) the dog knows this two-legger is alpha, totally in attitude. This is the amazing aspect that I have really studied. The attitude. It is all in attitude."

 

Well, I think attitude is a good part of it.  But I also think that if you're using an artificial "attitude" that you will slip out of it once in awhile, especially if you're tired, and then what happens?  I like the postive-based training because you don't have to aspire to be anyone that you aren't already.  Maybe it will work with Allicks because she is already used to the "attitude" and you've just slacked off of her so she has taken advantage of it.  But that's why I don't like having to have a certain attitude because eventually I will get a fever or experience a tragedy and I will not be able to keep up a front with my dogs.  The way it is now, if I'm in a down place in my life, the dogs behave just as well as they do when I'm up.  I'm not familiar with Command Performance.  I'll have to look into it.

 

I think there are two huge schools of dog training -- one, the militaristic kind, and I remember this English lady that used to be on TV when I was much younger.   When she said "Heel," the dogs snapped into position.  I think they knew that it was just a game, though, because I think they adored her.  I think that people have mistaken the discipline part as the part that the dogs love, while I think that the dogs are willing to put up with the discipline because they know that underneath it all, the owner/handler loves them.

 

Think back to all the bosses you've had in your life.  Do you ever remember having a boss that was very concerned about making sure everybody remembered that he was in charge?  He might have told you what you did wrong, and he might have even praised you, but he was always officious and let you know that you were a peon, so even though you worked well for him, you didn't like him. Then think about a boss that really cared about you and let you know it.  He may have had to tell you when you were doing something wrong, but you knew he cared about the company AND you.  How did you work for him?  I have had a few bosses that I would basically walk through fire for.  But not most of them.

 

I think that if Cesar has this "attitude" that he's the "boss," he is also doing something that lets the dogs know that he cares about them.  Otherwise they wouldn't follow him.  Does he ever tell you about this part of the attitude?

 

 

"I have Dogspeak by Dash somebody, and when JasonDundee was living with me (one tough cookie) I practiced dogspeak, growling (he turned on me twice after his rescue from the crackhouse) and snarling to show him I WAS THE BOSS ~ it's a horrible thing to be afraid your beloved pup will attack you when you are sleeping ~ and while it worked for JasonDundee, I like Cesar's method a whole lot better."

I wish I knew more about Cesar's technique.  I can infer from what you're saying that he doesn't bare his teeth and growl at the dogs!! I'm glad that the Dogspeak worked for JasonDundee. 

 

I am convinced that dogs will respond to and put up with all kinds of crazy s**t that we humans hand them.  That doesn't mean that we're doing something "right," but that the dogs really do a lot to accommodate us.  But who knows?  I wasn't there and if you got JasonDundee to back off, it must have been a blessing. 

 

A superstitious belief is when you link something that isn't linked in "real life."  For example, pretend I read in a dog training book that I should always wear pink underpants when I train my dog and they will respond better.  Well, armed with the knowledge that I am doing the right thing, I might just do other things that the dogs really do respond to because I'm more confident.  The trouble is that we never know what superstitions we have.  We all have them.

 

Suppose you bared your teeth at JasonDundee and he was so shocked that he backed off.  Then suppose that your whole body relaxed and you felt better because you had such good effect with baring your teeth.  And suppose that the dog noticed that you were more relaxed, calm, and confident, and that's what really changed him over time.  Well, you would never know, would you? You might have gotten the same results by just clapping your hands instead of baring your teeth.

 

I'm not saying that that's what happened in your case.  I'm just trying to explain the nature of superstitions.

 

I think that one superstition I had was that clicker training was everything.  Shortly after getting my foster dog, Paco, I regretted getting rid of all my choke collars.  That's because I was not exactly starting from scratch with Paco and perhaps he'd had other trainers jerk on his collar and he had been conditioned only to pay attention to leash corrections.  None of the other gestures, verbiage, etc., meant a darn thing to him.  I now think that when you're rehabbing a dog, you've got to start wherever you start, but that the goal should be to get them onto a positive training regimen as soon as possible.

Let's face it; even the old Kohler (leash correction) training is positive to a dog in that he's getting attention!  That's something that they really want!  Not the only thing, but they will put up with an awful lot of mistakes on our part if we are giving them attention.  A few dogs, however, will become more violent if we use the wrong techniques on them.  They just can't handle the violence.  If they don't turn on us, they get more jittery and start turning on their pack-mates instead. 

 

"Yes, books recommend letting the dogs work it out, and when humans interfere is when you have problems. This is not an acceptable course of action for Allicks. She MUST have limits and with Gabriel, she would just continue until someone broke it up. He is a sitting duck, so that won't happen. Allicks has challenged Ambrr and I interfered, then let Ambrr put her in her place. And she has challenged Jude, who quickly put her in her place. She leaves them alone now."

 

Okay, I thought that's what you meant.  Yes, I've heard the conventional wisdom that it's best to just let them work it out, and honestly, that will work fine for many situations.  That doesn't mean it's a good technique, because the conventional wisdom may be superstitious. In other words, it worked many, many times, so it was concluded that that was the "right" or "best" thing to do. 

 

But if you've ever had a blood-bath in your home you will think twice about the conventional wisdom.  This wisdom also forgets that we force these dogs to stay together, and they are not related and they don't know each other from birth the way real packs do.  So, again, I would think that like baring your teeth and doing alpha rolls, it works so well for so many dogs that we think it's a good technique.  But the one time it doesn't work, you will be so sorry.  I'm sure that a person who has done successful alpha rolls for 15 years would be completely shocked to have a dog bite her in the face.  When she gets out of the hospital, she will say that the dog has to be euthanized because he is no good.  But it never occurs to her that there might be better ways to handle situations than doing alpha rolls.  That is the power of superstition.

 

Anyway, how did I get back on that again?

 

I see that the leave-'em-alone technique worked with all the other dogs, but it doesn't work with Allicks and Gabriel.  I think that classical conditioning would work for these guys, but you would have to start by setting up the environment right.

 

"We have the baby gate up. But she 'hates' him through the baby gate. I have no idea how she finds him." 

 

So the baby gate, alone, is not enough to be successful.  Before you start working with them in earnest, you need to have a safe environment so there are no accidents.

 

By the way, everyplace that I have a baby gate, I have two.  One hangs in the usual position, and one hangs above it, so the two gates together are 6 feet high instead of 3 feet high. That's because Fido can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

 

Most homes are not set up this way, but say you had a living room in the middle of your house and two hallways, one to the master bedroom and another across the living room that goes to the two kids' rooms.  Then you could put up a set of baby gates, stacked so they are 6 feet high, at each hallway.  The living room would be a "No Man's Land," so to speak.  Then, it would be safe to bring Allicks and Gabriel together, with 20 feet between them, to sniff away and realize that they are confronting their nemesis.  But there would be no way they could make contact and draw blood thorugh the baby gate.  That would be safer.  I would love to see you look at your house and figure out a way to set up the environment so you can succeed in the conditioning.  And using leashes alone or one leash and one baby gate would not the right way to do it.  If you've got Allicks lunging on the leash, you've already lost.  What you need to do is set up a safe place for Gabriel, and then figure out exactly how far apart they have to be BEFORE she starts in with the lunging etc.  You've got to have a baseline before you can start making any progress.

 

"The trainer at petsmart was talking about rawhide aggression ~ which is't the case here, Allicks doesn't even like rawhide ~ but the corrections and desensitization was the same. 

 

What do you mean? You either desensitize or you correct, but you don't do both.

 

In order for that to work, I will have to pick up a choke chain as Allicks collar has no effect on her. She is oblivious to everything when in the zone, except kill.  So I think a squirt of water would 'roll' off her back..."

 

I think that you need to know what her boundary is. For example, when you first open her bedroom door, does she zoom out of it, hurdle the baby gate, and scratch at Gabriel's door so she can kill him?  Or, does he have to be outside of his room for her to try to kill him?  What is the Non-Killing-Zone?  Where is she successful at ignoring him? 

 

"Going to petsmart today for rescue & education so I will talk to mamaJoan, Allicks trainer to see what aggression techniques she may havev ...."

 

Good! Ask her if she has any techniques that do not involve punishment.

 

"Thank you so much Andrea for all this! As you might imagine, my life is in a standstill til I get a handle on this ;(   "

 

Yes, I know what you mean.  It's dangerous to be living like this -- not just for you, but for all your other animals, too. 

 

You know, reading through Kellie Snider's procedure reminds me that it would be perfect for you. And you could make incredible strides in just a few hours. But you would have to set up the environment right. 

 

Best of luck and please let me know if you need any help.

 

xoxo

Andrea

 

 

Karen Andy's ^i^ mom <andys_child@...> wrote:

Well, the good news is I was accepted by the group, according to the email, the bad news is it hasn't shown up. I'll work on that tonight.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE FOLLOWING, let's see, I'll do my replies in PINK

Andrea Robinson <andrearobinson93210@...> wrote:

Karen, my replies are in blue below!  And I apologize for being offline for a few days! I do think about you all the time even if I am swamped with craziness over here!

 

Andrea
Thank you for taking this time, Andrea, I really really appreciate it!
Karen Andy's ^i^

Andrea, your reply is so involved and detailed, I am saving to a text file so I can study it.

 

Ha-ha! You flatter me! And here I thought I was just rambling along...Never thought anyone would want to study my "ramblings!"  :)

 

I think Cesar's work points out one deficience of dog 'owners' in that they get bad behaviour from a pup but they have not set limits, they have not set their alpha.

 

Yes, it is SOOO much easier to train them earlier! 

 

I was a cat person forever, and wasn't til Andy left home and I found myself with a totally uncontrollable byproduct of human neglect that I started thinking about training.

 

I agree consistency is KEY, as well as control.  So while I have never needed to use his techniques with my houseful, I now do.

 

I'm not intimately acquainted with everything Cesar does.  I did see part of one of his videos on the Internet and it seemed impressive to me, but I did not see how he gave the "vibes" that he was alpha.  I remember that he was showing a lady how to get her dog to heel, and it really was true that the dog would heel with him, even if he didn't say anything to the dog, and the dog would not heel with the lady and would pull on the leash.  But he didn't really tell her exactly what he was doing and what she was doing wrong.  He just said she had to have the right attitude.

 

He squares his shoulders, breathes deeply, looks straight ahead, never at the dog.  A little bit like Command Performance, you take the lead, never letting the dog get aheada of you, and just walking, expecting the dog to follow.  Dogs pick up on our vibes and when Cesar takes the lead (of course any dog will act better with a stranger than with their moms, same with kids) the dog knows this two-legger is alpha, totally in attitude. This is the amazing aspect that I have really studied. The attitude. It is all in attitude.

 

I think that is one thing that people find problematic with his techniques.  It's not that he doesn't have good control of the dogs, because he does.  But if all you do is tell the person that they have the wrong attitude and they have to be the "alpha," that statement is loose enough that all kinds of people could interpret it different ways.  One person might growl and bare their own teeth at the dog (I was actually told to do this years ago when I first got into dog training -- but I thought that my teeth were too unimpressive so I eventually gave it up).  Anyway, you get the idea.  People could use his statement to really go overboard on the harsh treatment.  As long as you make it clear to Allicks what she needs to do to succeed rather than hammer on what she's doing wrong, she will improve. 

 

I have Dogspeak by Dash somebody, and when JasonDundee was living with me (one tough cookie) I practiced dogspeak, growling (he turned on me twice after his rescue from the crackhouse) and snarling to show him I WAS THE BOSS ~ it's a horrible thing to be afraid your beloved pup will attack you when you are sleeping ~ and while it worked for JasonDundee, I like Cesar's method a whole lot better.

Allicks is very attentive when she is not on kill mode. She is brilliant. And she is a wiggle butt of delight.  This is completely baffling.  They are separated by a baby gate which is coming out of the walls by constant banging on it.  She gets the rumble in her throat when Gabriel is on the other side. She went sailing over it the other night, so I cannot sleep with her not confined to a closed door. I had to change out all my doorknobs because Gabriel can open every door.  Gabriel delights in AmbrrNanaDog and they are precious together. He goes to Petsmart and is LWAR-C spokespup for rescue of lethal whites, and is very socialized (after his first year, when nobody left the house including me, as Andy was dead and my life had basically ended, now we are getting back in the game of life)  He gets along find with other dogs and loves AndiFeralKit.

AllicksBlindPup has had basic obedience, she is extremely intelligent and very high energy. She races through life at 100 mph, but listens to me when I get the 'voice'. 

 

Ha-ha! I can just picture this!

 

I have an 'application' in to the group ... applied and was denied... ?

 

Oh, my gosh! That's no good!  I don't know why they would deny you unless it's because you're not a "professional" dog trainer -- but you do enough rescue/rehab/adopt out work that you qualify, in my opinion!  Anyway, if that's the case, I will just do some cutting and pasting and share with you what I think are the important points.  (Unless they forbid this due to copyright issues ... I'll have to re-read the group rules.)

 

I was emailed I was accepted, but am not a member at the site ?

 

THANK YOU, Christy my cousin who is living here and working with both Allicks & Gabriel (in fact she is the one who touch trained Gabriel) We work with shelter dogs in socializing and play, as well as basic obedience on that odd Saturday when we don't have a milloin other things to do, like tomorrow we are setting up our Petsmart Rescue & Education Booth for LWAR-C.

 

Yes, Christy -- you are a doll! We love you.  :)

 

I have read that if a person backs out of the alpha issue, it will be resolved by itself.

 

What does that mean?  Do you mean the competition for status among the dogs?  It's not always wise to let them "work it out" -- there may be bloodshed, recurring problems, etc.  Remember that families are artificial packs in which neither dog is free to leave.  That can create a pressure cooker.

 

Yes, books recommend letting the dogs work it out, and when humans interfere is when you have problems. This is not an acceptable course of action for Allicks. She MUST have limits and with Gabriel, she would just continue until someone broke it up. He is a sitting duck, so that won't happen. Allicks has challenged Ambrr and I interfered, then let Ambrr put her in her place. And she has challenged Jude, who quickly put her in her place. She leaves them alone now.

 

In my house, there is no issue with Gabriel. He is just oblivious to her and not even near her when she attacks. He is no challenge,

 

Good! I know that he has not been to a formal obedience class -- has he been socialized with other dogs outside the family? 

 

and she certainly cannot see him, being blind. She may know that he is deaf and blind,

 

How does she know when he is around? Do you think it is noises, smells, etc.?  Have you tried any "classical conditioning"?  That just means that you find out how far away from each other they need to be in order to maintain the peace, and then treat both of them everytime they are around each other until they begin to look forward to it (this requires two handlers, of course).  Then you move them in one foot or so.  If they always required 20 feet between them, you wait until they are successfully taking the treats and acting happy 80% of the time at that distance.  Then you can change your distance to 19 feet.

 

We have the baby gate up. But she 'hates' him through the baby gate. I have no idea how she finds him.  As a yuk, I was thinking of scenting the cat,, so when she attacks Gabriel and goes airborne ~ and he goes flying after her at least he has a chance of finding her (they play :)

 

but he stays clear of her.

 

Yeah, I guess he would!  I assume that the only way he can know she is around is by scent ... or vibrations.  It's so interesting.

 

Last night, she came within 3 inches of his behind, Christy had his collar, while I had hers. And the low rumblel which precedes an all out attack came from her throat. STRONG correction with collar and off to the bedroom where she lives.

 

So I would suggest controlling their movements so they are never beyond their threshold of success until you've had a chance to do the classical conditioning.

 

Classical conditioning (as I understand it) just means that when two events occur together all the time, you begin to expect one of those events to happen anytime the other happens.  It can be good or bad associations.  For example, if everytime I walk to the store, a car drives by and splashes water on me, I start to expect it and take measures to prevent getting splashed.  Or, if everytime I'm around a cute male and he says nice, flirty things to me, I try to spend more time with him.  It takes time.  If you punish one of the dogs when the other is around, they may start to association the presence of the other dog as a precursor to being punished.

 

The trainer at petsmart was talking about rawhide aggression ~ which is't the case here, Allicks doesn't even like rawhide ~ but the corrections and desensitization was the same.  In order for that to work, I will have to pick up a choke chain as Allicks collar has no effect on her. She is oblivious to everything when in the zone, except kill.  So I think a squirt of water would 'roll' off her back...

 

She will have to go back downstairs which I HATE, because she so loves people. But she cannot continue to live in a bedroom.

 

Why? Is he in the bedroom, too? 

No he gets the front of the house, she gets the back... Never the twain shall meet, and as she can jump the baby gate, she has to go behind a door that he cannot open... I don't trust her. At all. Not for a moment :(

 

Going to petsmart today for rescue & education so I will talk to mamaJoan, Allicks trainer to see what aggression techniques she may havev ....

 

Looking forward to hearing more.  You're on the right track. Keep it up!

Andrea

Thank you so much Andrea for all this! As you might imagine, my life is in a standstill til I get a handle on this ;(

mom <andys_child@...> wrote:

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

out

 

 

Karen Anderson

Andy's ^i^Mom

Andrew Keith Anderson 6/17/80 ~ 11/5/04

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andyschild/

http://www.andrewkeithanderson.tvheaven.com/

www.andyschild.org

 

---

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.