This may be a bit of a crapshoot, but I am wondering if anyone is familiar with

Hiroshi

Shimizu, the director that apparently has influenced both Ozu and Mizoguchi?

More

specifically, has anyone seen his films?



The Hong Kong International Film Festival will be playing a retrospective for

this unsung

master in April. I am trying to help research some additional information on

him,

especially from people who are familiar with his works or at least have watch

them.



The information of him are really scant. In fact, IMDB.com doesn't even have a

chunk of his

films listed! And the only one which has any votes is "Arigato-san" (Mr. Thank

You, 1936).



I am trying to find out if anyone has some information (story overview, cast

list, etc.) for

the following films:



Mr. Thank You (Arigato-san) 1936, 78 min

Forget Love for Now (Koi mo Wasurete) 1937, 73 min

The Masseurs and a Woman (Anma to Onna) 1938, 65 min

Notes of an Itinerant Performer (Uta-jo Oboegaki) 1941, 98 min

Ornamental Hairpin (Kanzashi) 1941, 70 min

Children of the Beehive (Hachi no su no Kodomotachi) 1948, 86 min

Mr. Shosuke Ohara (Ohara Shosuke-san) 1949, 91 min

A Mother's Love (Bojo) 1950, 86 min

The Shiinomi School (Shiinomi Gakuen) 1955, 100 min



Thanks!



Raymond

> I am trying to find out if anyone has some information (story overview, cast

list, etc.) for

> the following films:

>

> Mr. Thank You (Arigato-san) 1936, 78 min

> Forget Love for Now (Koi mo Wasurete) 1937, 73 min

> The Masseurs and a Woman (Anma to Onna) 1938, 65 min

> Notes of an Itinerant Performer (Uta-jo Oboegaki) 1941, 98 min

> Ornamental Hairpin (Kanzashi) 1941, 70 min

> Children of the Beehive (Hachi no su no Kodomotachi) 1948, 86 min

> Mr. Shosuke Ohara (Ohara Shosuke-san) 1949, 91 min

> A Mother's Love (Bojo) 1950, 86 min

> The Shiinomi School (Shiinomi Gakuen) 1955, 100 min



I've seen one or two, including ARIGATO-SAN, and wasn't that impressed:

he seemed a little crude and simple to me, though I'd check him out

again if I had a chance, given how many people mention him.



I have credits here for a film not on your list, A STAR ATHLETE (1937).

   You can find a few passages on him in Anderson and Richie's THE

JAPANESE FILM - let me know if you haven't got access to this, and I'll

summarize. - Dan

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@p...> wrote:

> I've seen one or two, including ARIGATO-SAN, and wasn't that impressed:

> he seemed a little crude and simple to me, though I'd check him out

> again if I had a chance, given how many people mention him.

>

> I have credits here for a film not on your list, A STAR ATHLETE (1937).

>   You can find a few passages on him in Anderson and Richie's THE

> JAPANESE FILM - let me know if you haven't got access to this, and I'll

> summarize. - Dan



Thanks very much Dan! That would be a great help. In specific, if the book has

the cast list

for A STAR ATHLETE, that would help tremendously. What we are having problems

with

now is that we are not sure if the English translation of the Japanese casts'

names are right

or not.



Was there an accompanying literature with ARIGATO-SAN when you saw it? Also, I'm

curious to know why you thought the film was "crude" :)



Cheers! - Raymond

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@p...> wrote:

> I've seen one or two, including ARIGATO-SAN, and wasn't that impressed:

> he seemed a little crude and simple to me, though I'd check him out

> again if I had a chance, given how many people mention him.

>

> I have credits here for a film not on your list, A STAR ATHLETE (1937).

>   You can find a few passages on him in Anderson and Richie's THE

> JAPANESE FILM - let me know if you haven't got access to this, and I'll

> summarize. - Dan



Whoops, sorry! I was just informed that the cast list problem has been solved,

so no need

for the transcribing. Thanks very much for offering to help, Dan. Though I'm

still curious

to know why you think his films are a little "crude" :)



Cheers,



Raymond

Some of his films were just shown in Berlin. Chris Fujiwara speaks briefly about

NOTES OF AN ITINERANT PERFORMER in his report:



http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/movies/multi_1/documents/03644521.asp



Gabe

I didn't realize Chris had written about the fest, thanks for the

link.  I got to meet him and sat next to him during NOTES OF AN

ITINERANT PERFORMER.  My own notes are below.  Incidentally Gabe, do

you have a Berlin wrap-up posted somewhere?



"Notes of an Itinerant Performer (1941, Hiroshi Shimizu)



not listed on IMDb



YES YES - Absolutely wonderful use of space, a dramatic and dynamic

use of foreground and background in a way that conceals and reveals

characters, up there with the best of Renoir and Mizoguchi in this

period. Like Mizoguchi, Shimizu also seems punch drunk on tracking

shots, and uses them to a stunning variety of effects, from dramatic

to comic, sometimes at once. The compositions are immaculately

conceived, each character and object placed in a way that they seem

to give off their own glow in relation to each other.



- The story seems like textbook Mizoguchi -- a dancer in a travelling

show is sold to a rich household to be the dance trainer for the girl

of the house. When the patriarch of the household dies the family is

thrown into disarray, but the woman makes sacrifices in order to save

them. The resolution however is rather un-Mizoguchian in its

looseness and candidness -- instead of going for full throttle

dramatic intensity it opts for something less assuming, more frank

and unexpected, almost spontaneous like in some of Ozu's endings.

Like both of them he seems very attuned to the transience of life and

how people make moral decisions in response to the less-than-ideal

situations in which they find themselves. I really want to see more

of Shimizu's films. If they're as good as this one then he really

should be considered among the all-time Japanese elite filmmakers."











--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" <cklinger@e...>

wrote:

> Some of his films were just shown in Berlin. Chris Fujiwara speaks

briefly about

> NOTES OF AN ITINERANT PERFORMER in his report:

>

>

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/movies/multi_1/documents/03644521.

asp

>

> Gabe

I've seen three, one which I can barely remember, "Mr. Thank You," and

"Children of the Beehive." The two that I remember I liked enormously.

"Mr Thank You" is amazing, actually, and I was surprised Dan called it

"crude." It's "crude" only in the sense that it doesn't do what western

films do at all. It is one of the best examples for the thesis that

Japanese cinema of the thirties really could  be very different form

that of the west: not only does almost nothing happen in this film of a

bus ride, but there is a notable absence of artificial drama or dramatic

tension. The big "climax" comes when a touring car that had passed the

bus is seen to have broken down. There's an almost Buddhist acceptance

of the flow of life (in the bus ride) and tiny details therein.



"Children of the Beehive" is superficially a bit less original, but very

gentle, very beautiful, very moving. I'm delighted that I'll be able to

see more of his films while I'm in Hong Kong, and sad that I won't be

able to see the whole retrospective.



- Fred

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@f...> wrote:

> "Mr Thank You" is amazing, actually, and I was surprised Dan called

it

> "crude." It's "crude" only in the sense that it doesn't do what

western

> films do at all. It is one of the best examples for the thesis that

> Japanese cinema of the thirties really could  be very different

form

> that of the west: not only does almost nothing happen in this film

of a

> bus ride, but there is a notable absence of artificial drama or

dramatic

> tension. The big "climax" comes when a touring car that had passed

the

> bus is seen to have broken down. There's an almost Buddhist

acceptance

> of the flow of life (in the bus ride) and tiny details therein.

>



Sounds a lot like Kiarostami (and yet not so much like the Shimizu

film that I saw).  Would you agree?



Your description of "a notable absence of artificial drama or

dramatic tension" certainly applies to Ozu's films of the 30s, or of

any decade...

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@f...> wrote:

> I've seen three, one which I can barely remember, "Mr. Thank You,"

and

> "Children of the Beehive." The two that I remember I liked

enormously.

> "Mr Thank You" is amazing, actually, and I was surprised Dan

called it

> "crude." It's "crude" only in the sense that it doesn't do what

western

> films do at all. It is one of the best examples for the thesis

that

> Japanese cinema of the thirties really could  be very different

form

> that of the west: not only does almost nothing happen in this film

of a

> bus ride, but there is a notable absence of artificial drama or

dramatic

> tension. The big "climax" comes when a touring car that had passed

the

> bus is seen to have broken down. There's an almost Buddhist

acceptance

> of the flow of life (in the bus ride) and tiny details therein.

>

> "Children of the Beehive" is superficially a bit less original,

but very

> gentle, very beautiful, very moving. I'm delighted that I'll be

able to

> see more of his films while I'm in Hong Kong, and sad that I won't

be

> able to see the whole retrospective.

>

> - Fred



Luckily, you can still catch these two!



JAPANESE GIRL AT THE HARBOUR 4/16/04 @ 5:15PM

ORNAMENTAL HAIRPIN 4/17/04 @ 6:00PM



I am going to try and catch most, if not all, of the Shimizus after

the HKIFF. Oh, and the Lubitsch as well...



Cheers,



Raymond

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond P." <grimmyhk@y...> wrote:

"This may be a bit of a crapshoot, but I am wondering if anyone is

familiar with Hiroshi  Shimizu, the director that apparently has

influenced both Ozu and Mizoguchi? More specifically, has anyone seen

his films?"



Shimizu is a director of some excellence.  I agree with Fred C. that

his films support the thesis that '30s Japanese cinema was sui

generis in relation to Western cinema.  Far from crude I found the 4

films of his I've seen to be quite subtle, but I don't see an

influence from Shimizu on either Ozu or Mizoguchi.   You should take

a look at the chapter in Noel Burch's "To the Distant Observer" that

discusses Shimizu; he gives a good account of THE STAR ATHLETE. And

since many of Shimizu's stories are about children the connection

that Kevin made to Kiarostami bears further study.



Richard

> I have seen two of his films: Young Girls at Yokohama/Japanese Girls at the

> Harbour (1933) and The Masseurs and a Woman (1938). Two very different films

> and both immensely enjoyable. The former lingered in my mind particularly and

> reminded me more of American or Chinese silent cinema of the 1920s than the

> Japanese cinema of the time. Very spiritual and dare I say transcendental. The

> use of ³jump ins² (a phrase I just made up, referring to a kind of jump

> cut-zoom - is there a technical word for this?) to heighten dramatic instances

> and the sweeping tracking shots are striking and the story very moving. The

> latter film is lighter (relatively) in tone but still formally interesting.

>

> It is difficult to find credit information on Shimizu¹s films. Keiko McDonald

> at University of Pittsburgh is writing a book on him, which will hopefully

> contain more filmographic and bibliographic information.

>

> We will also be featuring a section dedicated to Hiroshi Shimizu in Senses of

> Cinema in the middle of the year.

>

> Michelle

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

> * To visit your group on the web, go to:

> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/

> *

> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> * a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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> *

> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service

> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Criterion commentary on HMA mentions that the music in N&F

(by a different composer) is similar, even though the composer had

never heard the music in HMA.  Interesting suggestion

for auteur influence.

The composer is Hans Eisler -- a contemporary of

Weill.

Brecht wrote songs with him too.

--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan <ean@...> wrote:

> Criterion commentary on HMA mentions that the music

> in N&F

> (by a different composer) is similar, even though

> the composer had

> never heard the music in HMA.  Interesting

> suggestion

> for auteur influence.

>

>

>





__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

And Eisler wrote a book, COMPOSING FOR THE FILMS, which must have

crossed the desk of any film composer who gave a damn about the

politics and cliches of film composing.

I don't think Eisler ever achieved the counterpoint that he sets

forth in the book, except in the NIGHT AND FOG score, which is

extraordinary and really courageous considering the images. Though I

haven't seen WOMAN ON THE BEACH or heard the proper score for Ivens'

film NEW EARTH (which, along with the last reel that inspired Brecht

to write a poem about throwing bread into the sea for market reasons

while people starve, is cut out of video versions already horrid in

quality).



best,

andy

So, are there prints of any of his films available in the US?



Or, are any of the films available on DVD or VHS (anywhere)?



Best,



Patrick F.

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming <programming@c...>

wrote:

> So, are there prints of any of his films available in the US?

>

> Or, are any of the films available on DVD or VHS (anywhere)?

>

> Best,

>

> Patrick F.



Pacific Film Archives in Berkeley has some Shimizu films but their

collection is non-circulating.  The Japan Society in New York City

may have something too.  As for DVD or VHS you might be able to find

something at CDJapan http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/ or Amazon Japan (no

English here though.)



Richard

As a postscript to this thread from last month -- there's a long article on

Shimizu's '30s silents at 

http://www.midnighteye.com/features/hiroshi_shimizu.shtml  (Saw this posted on

the Yahoo Ozu forum.)  The five films discussed are on Shochiku Home Video, but

I think (it's not quite clear) that must mean tape, not DVD?

Kevin Lee wrote:



>--

>

>

>Sounds a lot like Kiarostami (and yet not so much like the Shimizu

>film that I saw).  Would you agree?

>

>

Only to a small extent. I'm not I can put my finger on the difference

exactly, but the Kiarostami films I have seen (I'm not his biggest fan)

don't have the utter evenness of the two Shimizus. I don't say that in a

negative or positive sense, just descriptively. There are odd twists to

the narrative that create the smallest of tensions -- "Mr. Thank-You"

was without such tensions.



- Fred C.

Raymond:



> Also, I'm

> curious to know why you thought the film was "crude" :)



Well, everyone seems to love Shimazu, so I should withhold judgment for

now, I guess.  When I used the word "crude," I meant that the film

seemed to spend a lot of time and energy conveying simple bits of

characterization.  Also, ARIGATO-SAN was an early sound film, and seemed

to find the new technology a bit taxing.



Fred:



> It's "crude" only in the sense that it doesn't do what western

> films do at all. It is one of the best examples for the thesis that

> Japanese cinema of the thirties really could  be very different form

> that of the west: not only does almost nothing happen in this film of a

> bus ride, but there is a notable absence of artificial drama or dramatic

> tension.



We might be able to attribute these characteristics to filmmakers to a

large extent, rather than to national culture.  The cinema came along

too late to show us a Japan free of Western influences; ten years before

ARIGATO-SAN, Japanese cinema culture was deeply marked by American

technique and iconography.  I don't deny that all cultures have

characteristics, but I think that we tend to attribute too much to the

otherness of Japanese culture. - Dan

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@p...> wrote:



"We might be able to attribute these characteristics to filmmakers to

a  large extent, rather than to national culture.  The cinema came

along  too late to show us a Japan free of Western influences; ten

years before ARIGATO-SAN, Japanese cinema culture was deeply marked

by American technique and iconography.  I don't deny that all

cultures have characteristics, but I think that we tend to attribute

too much to the otherness of Japanese culture."



The important point of Western influences is the extent to which

these influences were assimilated and radically transformed by the

Japanese.  With reference to Japanese literature, dramaturgy,

painting, and cinema (which all absorbed Western

influence durning the period from 1872 to 1926) in every case

Japanese aesthetics shaped the creation of art work even in Western

modes of representation.



The arguement for the otherness (I think uniqueness is a better word)

of Japanese culture is based on 250 years of national isolation that

was far more complete than any other civiliized culture in the

world.  That's why Marx could describe Japan in the 1860s as being

a "living museum of feudalism."



I would liken the influence of the West on Japanese culture to the

assimilation of Western words into the Japanese language; the

grammar, the charcters and the idiomatic expressions remain the same,

and Western words (called gairaigo)are just rendered phonectically in

katakana.



Incidently, it's caharteristic of Japanese fiction to give small

details exhaustive treatment, and tiny gestures in Japanese drama are

held to convey tremendous emtional significance.



Richard

> I would liken the influence of the West on Japanese culture to the

> assimilation of Western words into the Japanese language; the

> grammar, the charcters and the idiomatic expressions remain the same,

> and Western words (called gairaigo)are just rendered phonectically in

> katakana.

>

> Incidently, it's caharteristic of Japanese fiction to give small

> details exhaustive treatment, and tiny gestures in Japanese drama are

> held to convey tremendous emtional significance.



I'd say that the test is whether Japanese films can or cannot be

assimilated easily by Western audiences: whether they require study and

acclimation before we can appreciate them.  My sense is that the

barriers to entry aren't that great, and that I feel the differences

more in the kind of feelings expressed than in the low-level cinematic

systems that deliver meaning. - Dan

Dan Sallitt wrote:



>

>I'd say that the test is whether Japanese films can or cannot be

>assimilated easily by Western audiences: whether they require study and

>acclimation before we can appreciate them.  My sense is that the

>barriers to entry aren't that great....

>

Yeah, except that Dan Sallitt, a film viewer of both broad and

discriminating tastes, doesn't seem to have "gotten" the "Mr. Thank You"

that others of us liked at all on his first viewing. And I've never

quite had the revelations with Ozu that others have, though I like his

films, sometimes a lot.



I've been looking at and thinking about Mizoguchi for decades, and have

written on him more than once, but I think I understand him a lot less

well than I understand Brakhage or Hawks. I certainly don't feel I've

"assimilated" him, even though he's one of my three favorite filmmakers,

along with Rossellini and Brakhage, and what I've read on him by

English-speaking critics suggests to me that they haven't assimilated

him either.. Even from a cultural point of view, I've never quite

"gotten" the body writing in Ugetsu, though a Japanese acquaintance once

explained the meaning of it to me. (Egad, now I'm not sure I even

remember it right, but it's whatever happens when the palace

vanishes...) And stylistically, too, I feel that a study of Buddhism,

traditional Japanese art, and other things, would help.



Richard, do I remember right that you lived in Japan for many years and

are fluent in Japanese? Maybe it's time for you (and others too) to send

me a bio and add to our bios page. In saying this, I don't mean to

suggest that those of us who don't have that behind us can't disagree

with you, but it does seem relevant here.



- Fred C.

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@f...> wrote:



> Dan Sallitt wrote:

> >I'd say that the test is whether Japanese films can or cannot be

> >assimilated easily by Western audiences: whether they require study

and

> >acclimation before we can appreciate them.  My sense is that the

> >barriers to entry aren't that great....



I think I'd disagree with those criteria. For example, the visual

art of the Edo period (the time of Japan's isolation) is, with some

exceptions, clearly formally different from Western European art

of the same period (most obviously in the use of perspective), but

the sensuous appeal of many Rimpa style paintings or Ukiyo-e

prints is immediate, and they are popular with Western audiences.

With qualifications -- the barriers to entry aren't that great.



Paul

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper <f@f...> wrote:



"And stylistically, too, I feel that a study of Buddhism, traditional

Japanese art, and other things, would help."





That was exactly my experience when I'd lived in Japan for awhile and

re-saw several Mizoguchi films there.  Knowing the cultural beliefs

and practices peculiar to Japan enriched my appreciation of

Mizoguchi.  Stylistically, Mizoguchi brought to cinema a range of

Japanese art practice that includes classical painting, classical and

modern dramaturgy, classical and modern literature.  I would argue

that space in Mizoguchi is both physical and metaphysical, and that

Buddhist belifs underpin his use of space even before his formal

conversion to Buddhism.



Also, some knowledge of Japanese folk belief clarifies certain

aspects of the period films.  For example, I read an article by Robin

Wood on UGETSU MONOGATARI where he objected to the fortuitous meeting

of Genjuro the potter with the itinerant priest who can "see" that

Genjuro is under the spell of a ghost.  This kind of lucky meeting

with a shaman who tries to protect the protagonist is a comon

folktale convention and is no great strain on Japanese credibility.

Further, the priest is a yamabushi (his odd hat is actually a rolled

up meditation mat and this is what identifies him as a yamabushi)a

kind of wandering mountain hermit known for his ability to subdue

hostile spirits. He writes the text of the Heart Sutra on Genjuro.

The Heart Sutra was thought to have protective powers, yet when Ohama

is being raped in the temple earlier in the film the Heart Sutra is

being chanted off-screen.  Japanese audiences would know this and it

may convey a meaning like "The words of the Buddha will protect from

demons but not from other men."



Or one could examine GENROKU CHUSHINGURA.  Knowledge of the standard

treatment of this story would enable one to realize how radically

different from other versions of the story Mizoguchi's version is

because (among other reasons)it omits the build-up to the attack on

Kira and instead begins with it.  Hara Kenichiro the co-screenwriter

said that Mizoguchi wanted to make a "historical" version of the

story rather than the usual good guys vs. bad guy one that was

popular since the first kubuki and bunraku performances of the 18th

century.  He intended to make a 7 hour movie examining the society of

the Genroku era that would be critical of feudal loyalty according to

Hara, but Shochiku, the studio for which he was making the movie,

wouldnt back a three part film.



Appreciation of SAIKAKU ICHIDAI ONNA would be enhanced by familiarity

with the novel on which it's based.  The book is a standard classic

that most educated Japanese would know. The plots of the movie and

the novel are nearly identical, but Saikaku's novel is a mordaunt

social satire that the uses the device of the fall of a high born

lady and her descent through various strata to satirize the foibles

of all classes of Japanese society of thate era. The title of the

book is KOSHOKU ICHIDAI ONNA which translates as "The Life of an

Amorous Woman."  Cleary Mizoguchi's approach to the material is

completely different from Saikaku's, but at the same time it's

typically Japanese to adapt and change a comic story to a tragic

story as was done with many 14th century Noh dramas that were

transformed into Buddhist meditations on impermanence and emptiness

from didactic or comic folktales.



Anyway, I collected a lot of notes and information from the Film

Dept. of the Kyoto City Museum that I'd be glad to share with any

writers/critics in the group who are planning to write on Mizoguchi

(just give me some time to work them up from my notebooks.)  I also

have the text of his jeisei (death poem)which is perserved in his

autograph at the museum.



Richard

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano" <tharpa2002@y...>

wrote:



> He writes the text of the Heart Sutra on Genjuro.



Something I've wondered about -- the subtitles refer to this

as Sanskrit. Is it?



I'm fairly sure it's in Japanese script, but I suppose it could be

Sanskrit represented phonetically, or a combination of Japanese and

Sanskrit.



Paul

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Gallagher" <pcg@p...> wrote:



"Something I've wondered about -- the subtitles refer to this

as Sanskrit. Is it?



I'm fairly sure it's in Japanese script, but I suppose it could be

Sanskrit represented phonetically, or a combination of Japanese and

Sanskrit."



The Heart Sutra ends with a mantra that's written in Sanskrit but the

text is written in Japanese characters,so 6 charcaters are written in

Sanskrit.  In the episode in KWAIDAN called "Hoichi the Earless" the

assistant priest covers Hoichi's body with the sutra in black ink and

writes the syllables of the mantra in red ink.  You get a much better

view of the written characters here since this is an important plot

point in the story (Spoiler: the demon tears off Hoichi's ears

because the priest failed to write the text on them.)



Richard

I like the way the subject of this thread has come to mean something

different but just as apposite.



Fred:



> Yeah, except that Dan Sallitt, a film viewer of both broad and

> discriminating tastes, doesn't seem to have "gotten" the "Mr. Thank You"

> that others of us liked at all on his first viewing.



Ha!  But surely isolated blind spots happen in any national cinema?  I

like a bunch of 30's Japanese films.



Paul:



> I think I'd disagree with those criteria. For example, the visual

> art of the Edo period (the time of Japan's isolation) is, with some

> exceptions, clearly formally different from Western European art

> of the same period (most obviously in the use of perspective), but

> the sensuous appeal of many Rimpa style paintings or Ukiyo-e

> prints is immediate, and they are popular with Western audiences.

> With qualifications -- the barriers to entry aren't that great.



Well, your point is interesting.  I was mostly reacting to Richard's

discussion of Japanese aesthetics, which made Japan seem a lot more

impenetrable than I've ever found it.



It seems to me that if you can engage substantially with another

culture's art (as opposed, I guess, to grabbing the elements you can get

and leaving the rest), then you must have a fair amount of common ground

in terms of grammar and usage.



- Dan

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt <sallitt@p...> wrote:



"It seems to me that if you can engage substantially with another

culture's art (as opposed, I guess, to grabbing the elements you can

get and leaving the rest), then you must have a fair amount of common

ground in terms of grammar and usage."



I agree with you pretty much, and I didn't mean to suggest that

Japanese aesthetics is inpenetrable; rather that certain nuances

require some background information to be appreciated. After living

and studying in Japan for awhile and getting to see certain Japanese

films that I'd seen in the US I had a much better understanding of

them once I was able to place them in their broader cultural

context.  With that kind of understanding an art work from another

culture can be better understood on its own terms.



Richard