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Auteurs and Editors   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #9001 of 48868 |
Re: [a_film_by] Re: Auteurs and Editors

I think one of the fallacies auteurists fall into in their defensive
mode is insisting that for an element of a film to reflect on the
director's themes, it must have been "created" by the director. In other
words, if I say that a cut in a Fritz Lang film is incredibly great and
connects with Lang's larger themes, and someone discovers that the
editor made the cut with no input from Lang, then some would say I was
wrong to see and discuss this cut in terms of Lang's style and themes. I
believe, by contrast, that I would be not wrong to do so.

Brakhage has a little known film called "Gift." It's not one of his
greatest works, but it's very good, and its imagery and rhythms are that
of a Brakhage film. But it's entirely a found object. Brakhage didn't do
anything to it at all, except make prints. He found it and thought the
decay patterns represented his aesthetic, so he signed and released it.

Similarly, there's John Cage's "chance music," at least some of which
really sounds like Cage. And Duchamp did not sculpt his "ready-mades."

These are extreme cases, but there are many related examples. Filmmakers
incorporate things that happen by chance during the shooting, for
example. Sumi ink painters don't control every shape on the page
exactly. Lots of artists work with the texture of their paper, even
though they didn't "decide" on where each hill and valley in the paper
would go.

What a great director does is produce, by some mysterious process,
imagery that materializes his vision, imagery that's both beautiful and
meaningful. A really bad edit can wreck such imagery (Fuller's "Shark"
would be one example), but especially in Hollywood films there are
editing conventions that directors expect will be observed. A director
provides an overall framework and way of seeing, and within that
framework a cut could function powerfully even if the director didn't
decide on it. The real test is in the subjective reaction of a viewer
who has carefully honed his perception and knows the director's work
well, not in tracing who did what. Sirk may not have decided exactly
where to intercut those torsos of dancers at "the party next door" in
"The Tarnished Angels," but the intercutting is devastatingly powerful
in a specifically Sirkian sense anyway, and beautifully foreshadows an
intrusion to come.

I'm not saying that editors or cinematographers don't have their own
styles visible across many films, and I'm not objecting to production
research. My only point is that just because a director didn't make a
specific decision, that doesn't mean that the effect of the element that
someone else decided on cannot become incorporated into the beauty and
meaning of the film when seen in terms of the director's oeuvre. Of
course, it's also true that not every decision in a film, not every cut
for example, is meaningful and beautiful.

About Hawks, I thought he told Bogdanovich that he worked on the editing
of all his films from the beginning. Who's right here? I've always
thought the editing in Hawks films was amazing, for the way it danced
with the body rhythms of the performers. But maybe the editing is pretty
standard Hollywood assemblage, and Hawks created imagery (camera
placement, actor movements, et cetera) that would combine with standard
Hollywood assemblage to produce the desired effect.

- Fred C.






Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:32 pm

fredcamper
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Message #9001 of 48868 |
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Dear friends - Peter's insightful comments about a recent TV episode directed by Bogdanovich got me thinking hard about auteurs and editing. To start with my ...
Adrian Martin
apmartin90
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Apr 15, 2004
1:42 am

Thank you Adrian, for opening the door to a topic, which I feel auteurists ignore with fear. I have on previous occassions said, that a film is created in the ...
Henrik Sylow
henrik_sylow
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Apr 15, 2004
8:42 am

... Yeah, you're an expert on what other people fear. -Jaime...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Apr 15, 2004
10:37 am

Thought-provoking and insightful post as usual, Adrian - speaking for myself, and probably simplifying it far too much, but I've grown weary of attributing...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Apr 15, 2004
10:54 am

... (like ... contractions, ... this, ... hospital ... I believe you're right about this. I recall an interview with Tarantino in which he mentioned that he...
Aaron Graham
machinegunmc...
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Apr 15, 2004
6:32 pm

King Vidor once expressed amazement that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences gave out an award for editing. His position was that it was...
joe_mcelhaney
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Apr 15, 2004
12:20 pm

... Well I don't know about "depressed." She was just expressing her appreciation. Marty's an editor too. They did "Woodstock" together, for crying out loud --...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Apr 15, 2004
1:36 pm

I think one of the fallacies auteurists fall into in their defensive mode is insisting that for an element of a film to reflect on the director's themes, it...
Fred Camper
fredcamper
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Apr 15, 2004
12:33 pm

... editing of all his films from the beginning. Who's right here? I've always thought the editing in Hawks films was amazing, for the way it ... editing is...
jaketwilson
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Apr 15, 2004
1:43 pm

... This is true. I know I'll pay more attention to editors and to give more consideration to their contributions in the future. Speaking within the limits of...
Zach Campbell
rashomon82
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Apr 15, 2004
1:46 pm

... This has absolutely nothing to do with your questions, but I watched JACKIE BROWN this morning (what a wonderful movie) and I noticed that Tarantino (i.e....
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Apr 15, 2004
2:38 pm

... wrote: "How much control did von Sternberg have? He was a powerful director for a period of time, did he get (or choose) to extend this power into editing...
Richard Modiano
tharpa2002
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Apr 15, 2004
3:45 pm

... Hmm...I haven't quite decided how answerable the question is (it's a bit like asking whether literature has produced any great examples of syntactic...
Matt Teichman
bufordrat
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Apr 15, 2004
11:35 pm

First of all, thanks to Adrian for his most interesting and provocative post. Essentially I agree with Fred's comments on this issue. I think that it is, in...
ptonguette@...
peter_tonguette
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Apr 15, 2004
3:14 pm

It seems to me the mise-en-scene as presented on the film is a primary form of editing. Camera movement in long takes another. Perhaps any involvement in the...
Elizabeth Anne Nolan
eanmdphd
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Apr 15, 2004
3:28 pm

... THE CHAPMAN REPORT was a famously re-cut film which Cukor felt was "ruined" by the tampering. There was post-production tampering as well on a number of...
joe_mcelhaney
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Apr 15, 2004
6:44 pm

James Curtis's bio of James Whale has a specific example of director/editor relations during the classical studio period in Hollywood. Working with Clarence...
Robert Keser
rfkeser
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Apr 15, 2004
4:03 pm

... During the Nick Ray retro in NYC last year, I felt like there was an editing technique that sprung from Ray's shooting style -- he likes to...
Zach Campbell
rashomon82
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Apr 15, 2004
4:47 pm

... mind right away, but I can think ... editing seems to go against the in- ... CLAIRE'S KNEE, when Jerome first ... is quiet and slow (like much of ... the...
filipefurtado
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Apr 15, 2004
4:50 pm

... It's very common for craftspeople to take this kind of attitude toward the filmmaking process: we're the ones who know what we're doing, the director...
Dan Sallitt
sallitt1
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Apr 15, 2004
4:59 pm

... Rohmer, whose sexual politics aren't very modern, once said in an interview that he could not imagine working with a male editor, because the intrinsic...
Dan Sallitt
sallitt1
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Apr 15, 2004
5:12 pm

... There's the beginning of MURIEL. And the end of L'ECLISSE. And all those transition sections in Ozu? Is this the sort of thing you had in mind? - Dan...
Dan Sallitt
sallitt1
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Apr 15, 2004
5:16 pm

... Have not yet seen MURIEL (this Tuesday it'll be remedied, though!). I believe the ending of L'ECCLISSE did come to mind after I thought about it for a...
Zach Campbell
rashomon82
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Apr 15, 2004
6:02 pm

... Almost by definition it's hard to think of editing in narrative films that doesn't serve a narrative purpose -- I agree with Henrik that one of the key...
jaketwilson
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Apr 16, 2004
2:09 am

... wrote: "But it's harder to think of examples of virtuosic, or simply admirably visible, editing is not spurred into existence by something else." Though...
Richard Modiano
tharpa2002
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Apr 16, 2004
4:44 am

... Then you would have to throw in the opening, closing, and jousting scenes in LANCELOT DU LAC as well as the opening and closing scenes of AU HASARD...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Apr 16, 2004
4:51 am

Indeed it is an important inquiry and the non-chalance about the issue is odd. I don't purport to have any real answers. I would, however, like to add...
Andy Rector
kinoslang
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Apr 15, 2004
6:28 pm

In the early 1980's it became fashionable to put music video like sequences into movies. These were dialogueless sequences, often full of dance like motion ...
MG4273@...
nzkpzq
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Apr 16, 2004
3:24 am

... I find this is also the case with Bogdanovich. At the end of my upcoming piece on him, I include an itemization of all of the various versions of ...
ptonguette@...
peter_tonguette
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Apr 16, 2004
6:46 pm
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