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Re: Cineaste, auteur etc: A group FAQ?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #7439 of 48868 |
Re: [a_film_by] Re: the Same Old Arguments

I think I agree with both David and Jaime here, if that's possible. I
saw "Network" on its initial release. I enjoyed it mildly for the bitter
and telling script (and if that's the origin of the "I'm mad as hell and
I'm not gonna take it anymore" line, then Cheyevsky gave us a line that
has made it into the culture, but, ironically, without his intended
irony) but hated the direction, which seemed visually mindless. So
because Lumet is so bland, Cheyevsky's script was the element that stood
out.

But, per Dan, because auteurism is an "aesthetic" for me, I also have to
rate "Network" as a bad film from an aesthetic point of view, even if
worth recommending for elements within it. The director was asleep at
the switch, and had nothing to offer except making the script into a
picture-book, and with none of the skills of the great book illustrators
of the past such as Gustave Dore. For me a film becomes a work of art
only when its images are organized into visual expression. I don't like
dogmas, and exceptions are possible, but because my auteurism was
arrived at empirically I think it's not a dogma, and I've found very few
exceptions.

Now for someone who values script or acting as much as anything a
director might contribute, an aesthetic such as mine (or, perhaps, Dan's
and Jaime's) makes no sense. But I'd question whether that person is
really a 99 and 44/100ths per cent pure (quoting an old soap advertising
line) auteurist. The whole point of auteurism, as far as I'm concerned,
is to say that by and large and most of the time if a film is great it's
great because the director has created an emotionally powerful,
intellectually engaging, visually expressive and even beautiful work of
art. And the kinds of things a director can add can really not be added
by other crew members, as already discussed here many times.

- Fred




Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:19 pm

fredcamper
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Message #7439 of 48868 |
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To Bill, definitions would be great. Thanks in advance. To all, perhaps we should gradually construct a FAQ for our group? ("FAQ" = a very common 'Net term for...
Fred Camper
fredcamper
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Feb 12, 2004
12:35 am

... notion ... I'm having a hell of a time duking it out with some youngsters on the Rotten Tomatoes discussion board ...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Feb 12, 2004
1:12 am

Do the people you talk with watch many silent movies? It is hard to look at the visual glories of Griffith, Eisenstein, Sternberg, Stroheim, Keaton, etc, and...
MG4273@...
nzkpzq
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Feb 12, 2004
1:51 am

... the ... Pretty interesting discussion, though I got exhausted well before the end. One thing that struck me was the mention of Paddy Chayevsky, who also...
jaketwilson
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Feb 12, 2004
11:46 am

... Chayevsky is the auteur of all the films written by him with the exception of "Altered States." Cromwell and Lumet are both very fine directors (and...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
2:49 pm

... Do you ever know any other way to put things? ... Obviously a strong writer will overpower a weak director. But that doesn't make the writer an auteur....
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Feb 12, 2004
3:06 pm

... You act as if there's something "unnatural" about this. It doesn't "diminish" the work in question at all. It's a simple fact of film history and...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
4:37 pm

... What? I don't follow. ... How can I get used to something that registers as just plain incorrect, and barely makes sense? -Jaime...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Feb 12, 2004
4:42 pm

... What's incorrext or nonsensical about it? Chayevsky didn't just write "Network" -- he produced it. He HIRED Sidney Lumet to direct his script and had ...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
4:55 pm

... I mean, could you support your argument with another film? I mean, the circumstances you describe would seem to support auteurism because the strong and...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Feb 12, 2004
5:18 pm

... Look at "The Best Man" -- written and produced by Gore Vidal and directed by Franklin Schaffner. Not bland at all. ... Right. Much like Russell's...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
5:49 pm

... I'll check it out when I get a chance. ... I disagree and feel you're misusing the term, but you know I think that. ... Straw man. Never said that. -Jaime...
Jaime N. Christley
j_christley
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Feb 12, 2004
5:59 pm

... See, I take issue with Meyers' assumption that there is an innate dominance at work within any particular movie. And she's far from the only one who talks...
Dan Sallitt
sallitt1
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Feb 12, 2004
4:20 pm

... at their ... r how many ... eur of THE ... "I think ... an aesthetic ... Chayevsky is the major creative force behind The Hospital, but well that´s true...
filipefurtado
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Feb 12, 2004
5:01 pm

... I ... Nope. "The In-Laws" -- and Andrew Bergman film directed by Arthur Hiller -- is superiror. I ... Or not. __________________________________ Do you...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
5:44 pm

I think I agree with both David and Jaime here, if that's possible. I saw "Network" on its initial release. I enjoyed it mildly for the bitter and telling...
Fred Camper
fredcamper
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Feb 12, 2004
5:18 pm

... to rate "Network" as a bad film ... and ... dogma, and I've found very few exceptions. ... Fred, arguing with himself: Aren't you contradicting yourself...
Fred Camper
fredcamper
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Feb 12, 2004
5:47 pm

... I don't consider Chuck Walters to be an auteur, Fred. or who Bertolucci boffed during which ... Or Allen Midgette either. Maybe it will be healthy for our...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
5:58 pm

... As we've discussed before, "auteur" can mean "great director who is the author of his films," but it can also mean "director who is clearly the author of...
Fred Camper
fredcamper
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Feb 12, 2004
6:17 pm

... Obviously, having power over a film is very important. But this idea way pre-dates auteurism. America has always lavished attention on powerful directors...
Dan Sallitt
sallitt1
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Feb 12, 2004
6:44 pm

... What's more or less original about auteurism ... And then they might NOT. I'm perfectlyaware of the fac that this is Absolute Sacrilege, but Howard hawks...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Feb 12, 2004
7:09 pm

... Excellent observation as usual, Dan. We should really slide away from the "X is *really* the auteur" statements (and even, "X and Y are both the real...
Zach Campbell
rashomon82
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Feb 12, 2004
8:06 pm

... there's at least one other member of this group who is willing to join in the absolute sacrilege -- myself. There are three, maybe four Hawks films I love...
jpcoursodon
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Feb 13, 2004
12:53 am

... -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com...
Tosh
tosh3@...
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Feb 13, 2004
4:41 am

... Sure, but...? No one would disagree with this. ... Sacrilege is fine - I certainly don't like every director in the auteurist canon. But I'm trying to...
Dan Sallitt
sallitt1
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Feb 13, 2004
3:19 am

I think Dan is right on target about what auteurism contributed. An addendum, though: ... I think maybe auteurism was needed to appreciate some *late*...
Fred Camper
fredcamper
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Feb 13, 2004
3:31 am

... I always found Dan's formulation to be extremely useful, that the auteur theory isn't really a theory so much as an aesthetic. As such it allows that...
Joseph Kaufman
joka13us
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Feb 12, 2004
9:58 am
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