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Rosenbaum Disses Bergman in the NYT   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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Re: Rosenbaum Disses Bergman in the NYT

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" <jpcoursodon@...> wrote:
>
> But an auteurist like J.R.
> dissing Bergman in the Times can only bring grist to the mill of
> those who consider any attempt at seriousness in film unseemly,
> since movies are supposed to only provide mindless entertainment.
>
> JPC

JP, have you read the article? It's true that I praise Bergman as an
entertainer and compare him to George Cukor (which to me is no
insult), but I also make cases in the same article for Dreyer,
Bresson, Anotonioni, Tarkovsky, and Welles as serious filmmakers, both
in relation to film language and (in the latter three cases) as
commentators on the contemporary world. So those who think movies
should only provide mindless entertainment aren't going to find that
much backup in my piece.

And Bilge, I agree that many Bergman films are out on DVD, even though
it's obviously a much smaller fraction of the whole work than one
finds with Dreyer and Bresson. My point is that what IS available
isn't being received with the same complex seriousness that greets the
work of these other filmmakers, and that there are legitimate reasons
for this. Of course, if anyone wants to argue that Bergman deeply
altered our sense of film language and/or had fresh things to say
about the modern world to the same degree as these other filmmakers,
I'm all ears. The article is meant to stir the pot, not close the lid.

Jonathan




Sat Aug 4, 2007 3:47 pm

dreyertati
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Almost every statement in this rather shallow article could be challenged on the ground of irrelevance, biased vision,unfairness, questionable reasoning or...
jpcoursodon
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Aug 4, 2007
3:15 pm

... JP, have you read the article? It's true that I praise Bergman as an entertainer and compare him to George Cukor (which to me is no insult), but I also...
Jonathan Rosenbaum
dreyertati
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Aug 4, 2007
3:47 pm

... wrote: The article is meant to stir the pot, ... And Boy Howdy does it ever! Woody's therapists are going to be working overtime becuase of your piece. ...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
3:57 pm

... Obviously I did. I couldn't have written all the nasty things I wrote about it if I hadn't! It's true that I praise Bergman as an ... both ... that ... ...
jpcoursodon
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Aug 4, 2007
4:44 pm

Re: Rosenbaum Disses Bergman in the NYT ... those who think movies ... Well, I guess if you can ignore sizable chunks of my argument in order to settle on just...
Jonathan Rosenbaum
dreyertati
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Aug 4, 2007
5:12 pm

... That "even though" makes it sound as if you still have a point, but the fact is that Bresson and Dreyer *combined* didn't direct as many features as ...
Bilge Ebiri
bilge_ebiri
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Aug 4, 2007
5:24 pm

... relevance, ... preoccupied, for ... generous ones ... Bergman ... than one. ... Thanks for the lengthy post, Bilge. Most of your points seem perfectly ...
Jonathan Rosenbaum
dreyertati
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Aug 4, 2007
6:02 pm

... wrote: For whatever it's worth, I'm something of ... It's my second-favorite Bergman film -- right after "Persona." ...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
8:08 pm

... And what about Bresson? Recent Bresson retorspectives have proven surprisingly popular -- esepcially after years and years of Bergman-worshipping critics...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
7:51 pm

... I have no problems with that. I like Bresson a great deal, and couldn't be happier that his work is now more popular and available. This is why I do not...
Bilge Ebiri
bilge_ebiri
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Aug 4, 2007
8:09 pm

I thought Bilge was arguing that Wong is indeed "fashionable". I also think that Godard is enormously popular with audiences that are commonly construed as...
Jack Angstreich
jackangstreich
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Aug 6, 2007
7:20 am

I thought Tarkovsky said Bresson was his favorite filmmaker; am I mistaken? Jack Angstreich ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
Jack Angstreich
jackangstreich
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Aug 6, 2007
7:03 am

... I'm not sure Tarkovsky would have wanted to choose between them, or to worry much about ranking them. I remember reading somewhere that Tarkovsky said that...
Bilge Ebiri
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Aug 6, 2007
7:18 am

I thought Robin Wood's book on Bergman was largely an argument (of a Leavisite kind) for Bergman's relevance; I understand that Wood has since changed his mind...
Jack Angstreich
jackangstreich
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Aug 6, 2007
7:09 am

... Robin Wood's book is a personal confession hedging towards an apologia pro vita sua. ...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 6, 2007
1:25 pm

You have a point, j-p. But Jonathan's real taregt here isn't Bergman but Woody Allen and the NYT readers who regard Woody as a cultural arbiter. ... ...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
3:52 pm

Well, if that's the case, the real target is cleverly concealed behind the ostensible one, which is definitely Bergman.JPC ... ...
jpcoursodon
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Aug 4, 2007
4:35 pm

This article says that "fluid storytelling" makes an artist "less important". Belief that storytelling is bad is widespread. But it is not consistent with a...
Michael E. Grost
nzkpzq
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Aug 4, 2007
4:37 pm

... It's a bit of leap to go from my claim that Bergman's fluid storytelling entailed a reluctance to challenge conventional filmgoing habits to the argument...
Jonathan Rosenbaum
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Aug 4, 2007
4:55 pm

I'm a huge admirer of Rosenbaum's "Essential Cinema", which I've praised before in a_film_by. Mr. Rosenbaum's post about what he meant to say about Bergman...
Michael E. Grost
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Aug 4, 2007
5:20 pm

"Mr. Bergman simply used film (and later, video) to translate shadow- plays staged in his mind — relatively private psychodramas about his own relationships...
thebradstevens
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Aug 4, 2007
5:43 pm

... No. It was Manoel de Oliviera who said the motion picture camera was a device created in order to record great works of theater. I ... You haven't seen...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
7:53 pm

... "All films are about the theatre, there is no other subject." Jacques Rivette, Cahiers du Cinema, 1968. But of course, as David suggests, Rivette said this...
Jonathan Rosenbaum
dreyertati
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Aug 4, 2007
8:06 pm

... Jacques ... of ... Rivette was obviously being deliberately provocative when he made that statement. But its implications are fascinating. Far from ...
thebradstevens
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Aug 4, 2007
9:04 pm

... suggests, ... 1 ... one ... that ... SCENES ... the ... Terrific observation, Brad, which I hope was not overlooked in the heat of a wide-ranging...
Blake Lucas
lukethedealer12
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Aug 5, 2007
5:02 pm

... That may be, but I'm pretty sure that Rivette said theatre was the true subject of cinema (which is not at all the same thing as saying that the camera is...
thebradstevens
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Aug 4, 2007
8:27 pm

... Much of it STARTS as lovingly filmed theatrical rehearsals. What they BECOME is something quite different. I'm not saying this isn't ... Bergman is Gadge. ...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
8:43 pm

... Wrong. The entire film shows characters rehearsing for 'theatrical' events (either literal theatrical productions or conspiracies) which never quite...
thebradstevens
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Aug 4, 2007
8:56 pm

... They didn't emerge at all they become something else. Lili leaves "Seven Against Thebes" when Renaud takes over the production and rejoins the...
David Ehrenstein
cellar47
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Aug 4, 2007
9:23 pm

... That's a perfectly legitimate way of reading the film. But there's another, equally legitimate reading which would see theatre not being abandoned at all,...
thebradstevens
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Aug 4, 2007
10:09 pm
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