Far more foolish than wise, as many here will advise you but I will
accept the compliment with gratitude.

As for the marriage certificate, the ages might be viewed with a
jaundiced eye. Ollie was born in Oct 1894 and Jack was born in Aug
1896(?) There is no doubt that it is THE marriage certificate. Notice
that our old friends Thomas Meighan (who Ollie described as
her "father" in the well documented marriage story in Taylorology
from 1917 or four months before the marriage took place) and Marjorie
Cassidy (who also took a leave from the Follies and the Frolic to
audition for Triange in the spring of 1917 and was part of the fight
where Ollie told off Billy Bitzer) are listed as the witnesses. The
certificate also lists this as Ollie's second marriage. So if the
certificate lists their ages as 22, I am more likely to suggest a
clerical error than an attempt at fraud. If the wedding date was any
earlier, I would have suggested that Jack might still be underage and
was attempting to avoid his mother's wrath but it would appear that
both were of the age of majority at this time and hence, the marriage
could not be contested. Still, something about the timing of this
disturbs me. As with anything with Ollie, it always raises another
question.

A suggestion concerning ages of Silent film stars, there are a couple
of necrologies out there that are very accurate. One, off the top of
my head that is more accurate than not, is Silent Film Necrology.
There is another that is even more accurate that also features a few
short biographies of some "forgotten" stars including Fay Tinker and
Justine Johnstone but I cannot remember its name but the author is
Billy Doyle.

As for posing for artists of the period, it is well documented that
posing for Howard Chandler Christy was a part of her prizes for
winning the prettiest salesgirl contest in 1914. It was also well
documented that Ollie was extremely close to Harrison Fisher and
appeared on the Saturday Evening Post during her professional
association with Ziegfeld. Others in the groups have often mentioned
Ollie posing for various artists. I will defer to their research.
Further, between the public end of her personal relationship with
Ziegfeld (i.e. after Billie Burke became pregnant) and the true
beginning of her movie career in earnest with the Whartons in the
summer of 1916, there are a lot of clippings and articles suggesting
that Ollie posed for Conde Nast and his publications. Did she pose
for Kirchner? Your guess is as good as mine but nothing would
surprise me. Still, Ollie's obituary stated that Ollie was an
artist's model from the time she appeared in NYC in the winter of
1914 until the end of her life. Unfortunately, being an "artist's
model" in 1914 also had the connotation of "working girl" today. See
this as one cause for the above mentioned mother's wrath. For
another, see the above mentioned public end of her personal
relationship with Flo Ziegfeld and the well documented wedding story
in 1917. Mother Pickford could count to nine months as well as anyone
could and did.

The painting "Memories of Olive" is an interesting story. It was
commissioned by Ziegfeld and done by Alberto Vargas who was beginning
his association with the Follies before his better known work with
Esquire and Playboy. It was Vargas' custom to paint the subject
twice. Vargas kept one and sent the other to Ziegfeld who kept it in
his office. Vargas' copy was destroyed in a home fire in the 60's.
Ziegfeld's copy was sold during the depression when Billie Burke was
trying desperately to cover all her husband's debts. It was
eventually part of a sordid murder trial where a love triangle ended
a troubled marriage. In the midst of examining a videotape
documenting the valuables withing the home, the wife was describing
her "Vargas" as a pre-marriage gift, the police noticed the wife
performing an action that she denied previously including knowing the
combination of the safe. It was enough to send her away for a long
time and the portrait has been sold for a great deal of money... 250K
is the amount I have been quoted. The painting was "completed" in
the summer of 1920 after her return from California in the late
spring and the cruise at the end of the summer of 1920.

One note, as my instructors have repeated often and one that I
continue to stress ... no question is elementary.

Good luck

Your partner in limburger.

--- In TheNewCovenOfOliveThomas@yahoogroups.com, "kathleenbarbosa"
<kathleenbarbosa@...> wrote:
>
> You are so wise, Rancid. If I might mine you for a bit more
> information, I was wondering if you (or anyone else in the group)
> could clear up a perplexing issue for me? I was recently perusing
> an image of Olive and Jack's marriage certificate. They both
listed
> their age as 22 years. I was under the impression that Jack was
> younger than Olive? Am I wrong on this? Also, she would have been
> a bit older than 22 in January of 1918, no? Would they have fibbed
> about their ages in a legal document of this sort? It's very
> confusing. One thing I've noticed in my fondness for silent films
> is that it's very difficult to pin down the accurate ages of many
of
> the players. It seems actresses lied about their ages even then!
>
> Also, I read somewhere that "Memories of Olive" was painted, or at
> least completed, after her death in 1920. Is this the work that
she
> sat for in her lifetime, or was/is there another? I noticed the
> case of mistaken identity involving Shirley Vernon. Funny. Also,
> was she ever painted by Raphael Kirchner? If so, do any depictions
> of Olive by Kirchner exist? I saw one of a Folly that kind of
> looked like Olive -- pretty, big blue eyes, dimpled chin, dark
hair -
> - but no model was named, and it's difficult to know for sure. I
> know he was around painting Follies in 1915, and I really enjoy his
> work, so was just wondering ...
>
> Thanks for any light anyone could shed on these issues. Sorry if my
> questions are elementary. I only discovered Olive (and this group)
> very recently.
>
> --- In TheNewCovenOfOliveThomas@yahoogroups.com, "rancidcheesehead"
> <rancidcheesehead@> wrote:
> >
> > This is also from "A Girl Like That". Ollie had a minor role to
> male
> > lead Owen Moore (in glasses) as his matchmaking annoying baby
> sister.
> > Ollie is credited as "Alice Thomas" according to AFI.
> >
> > A complete synopsis of the story was available through several
> > magazines of the era with a few production stills usually
> including
> > the better known Owen Moore in those dreadful glasses. The
> University
> > of Wisconsin has a portion of the story on microfilm. It should
be
> > available in other archives.
> >
> > The film appears to have been made on the east coast in the
spring
> > 1916 but not released for over a year. Production information is
> > scarce. Famous Players was in some turmoil due to a fire that
> > destroyed its New York offices at the time. As Ollie suggested
> > in "Work", they never offered her a contract and she moved on.
> >
> > Your partner in limburger
> >
> >
> > --- In
TheNewCovenOfOliveThomas@yahoogroups.com, "kathleenbarbosa"
> > <kathleenbarbosa@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was looking at some unidentified film stills a few weeks back
> and
> > > ran across a photograph from c. 1917 that seems undoubtedly to
> show
> > > Olive Thomas in a yet uknown production. The date and origin
of
> > the
> > > photo are uncertain, as are the identifications of the actors
> which
> > it
> > > portrays, but I think it is certain that it shows Ollie in
> > character.
> > > If interested, you can find it at
> > > www.silentfilmstillarchive.com/unknown.htm
> > > p.s. they also have a couple of stills from "A Girl Like That,"
> an
> > > Olive Thomas vehicle of 1917, elsewhere on the same site. You
> can
> > > search for it by her name or by the title of the film.
> > >
> >
>