StoryNotesNewsletter #27

Recently I came across a
conversation I had with
Lew Hunter back in 1995,
which appeared in the print
publication of "StoryNotes"
that I had at the time. I
was pleased to see that it is
all still relevant and filled
with good information and ideas.

So ... I'm making it available.
Right here and now. There are
some great craft-related
insights here; I'm grateful Lew
gave me permission to run it
again online. A few follow-up
questions and answers have been
included.

Before we begin, may I be permitted a personal
announcement?

The current issue of "Creative Screenwriting"
magazine contains the debut of my new column,
"Our Craft." It's the July 2003 issue, with
"Pirates of the Caribbean" on the cover. I'm
proud to be a columnist now at that publication.

My initial series of columns will identify and
debunk dubious screenwriting advice. There's a
lot of it out there. I target decrees, edicts,
commandments, and so-called rules that I feel
are partially or in some cases wholly false.

So if you happen to see an issue at your local
news-stand or bookstore, you might want to give
the newly revamped Creative Screenwriting (and
my column) a look-see. Maybe even buy it.

Or go to http://creativescreenwriting.com to subscribe.


Returning to the content-portion of the newsletter:


I found Lew to be friendly, helpful, and as expected,
extremely knowledgeable. The occasion of the conversation
was the then-recent publication of his book.

Now semi-retired, Lew worked for Columbia, Lorimar,
Paramount, Disney, and at NBC, ABC, and CBS as a writer,
producer, and executive. For a number of years he was a
screenwriting instructor and chairman of the screenwriting
department at UCLA, one of the top film schools in the U.S.

I'll mention what he's been up to lately at the conclusion
of the conversation -- including info about his new book.

And now ...


ISSUE #27


A CONVERSATION WITH


LEW HUNTER ... A Writer with Class


by Jeff Newman


Based on his acclaimed class at UCLA, "Lew Hunter's
Screenwriting 434" was endorsed by Michael Ovitz, Michael
Eisner, and many others. It is one of the two best-selling
books on screenwriting ever.


NEWMAN: Many books on screenwriting already line our
shelves. What contribution did you want to make by adding
another?

HUNTER: Many people asked me to. But I didn't hit on the
right approach until a publisher suggested, "Why don't you
put your class on paper?" I thought that was a good idea,
because what my class does is go through the process of how
to write a screenplay.

So the value is two-fold. One, I've been making a living as
a screenwriter for twenty-five years, in addition to
teaching at UCLA for fifteen. I felt that I had a certain
cachet that many others do not have, in my opinion.

But the main reason was because all of the books pretty much
talk *about* screenwriting, talk *around* screenwriting, but
they don't literally go through the screenwriting process.
Not on such a step-by-step, "how-to" basis.

NEWMAN: Yes, that *is* a different approach. In fact, I
find your discussion of the revision and rewriting process
-- "Chapter 8: The Rewrite(s)" -- to alone be worth the cost
of the book. That and the "Page 17" discussion.

HUNTER: Thank you.

NEWMAN: But first let's talk about part of the preparatory
phase. Do you advise your students to work out a very long
and detailed character bio? Or is it all right with you to
keep it somewhat sketchy? In one of William Froug's books
he and some of the writers he interviewed mentioned that
they don't need to know how much change a character has in
his pocket or what elementary school he went to.

HUNTER: No, I don't think you should know all that stuff.
Your outline shouldn't be overly detailed. You don't want
to leave your fight in the dressing room. I think you
should have a rounded-out idea of who your character is.
Your character sketches should give a lot of latitude for
growth. When you begin writing, your characters will grow,
if you let them. They need room to grow.

NEWMAN: The main thing is to know their speech patterns,
their personality types, and what motivates them -- their
attitudes and values -- as well as you would for a good
friend.

HUNTER: I agree. Allow your characters some breathing room
within the context of your story, and be open to your
subconscious. To a large degree, as Lajos Egri said, your
characters drive your picture. In most of the great movies,
it's the *characters* you remember best -- Rhett Butler and
Scarlett O'Hara, Rick Blaine. You remember the characters.
Lock yourself in you'll find yourself with sterile
characters.

NEWMAN: The movies we really remember have great characters
and several marvelous moments.

HUNTER: Exactly.

NEWMAN: In the screenplays I evaluate by non-pros, some of
them are pretty solid in terms of structure and the plot is
in pretty good shape, but the characters aren't quite alive.
And sometimes they make the characters say or do things they
really wouldn't. I don't think the writers are actually in
the characters' heads as they write them. That seems tough
for some writers to do. In your class, did you have an
exercise to help with this? I'm sure mainly it's a matter
of talent, but I was wondering if you had some techniques to
help with this.

HUNTER: Write a brief description of your main characters,
like a strong paragraph. My only change is that I now ask
the writer to write the description in the first person and
go to the soul of the character, not the trivial. It can
sound trivial but ... well ... "I hope someday I have
furniture you can't clean by washing it off with a garden
hose." That certainly isn't trivial, eh?

NEWMAN: Not at all. That's a good way to get to know the
character better -- in ways that really count -- and also to
practice seeing through the character's eyes. Thinking the
character's thoughts and feeling his or her emotions.

HUNTER: It helps you see their perspective, and it helps
you get to know their soul.

NEWMAN: Speaking of plot vis a vis character ... you wrote
about *vertical* versus *linear* stories, which basically
means character-driven versus plot-dominant stories, and how
movies tend to fall or at least lean one way or another.
What about CASABLANCA?

HUNTER: Most movies -- many very good ones -- *do* lean one
way or another. But I think the pictures we all most enjoy
are both character- and plot-oriented simultaneously. They
have both. A crackerjack of a story will have both. We
are, primarily, storytellers, but we have to have wonderful
characters in there for the audience to remember and because
that's what the audience cares about, identifies with, and
roots for.

NEWMAN: You recommend writing a two-page outline before
starting the first draft -- no less, and no more.

HUNTER: Two pages, double-spaced, giving a good idea not
just of the main idea or concept, of course, but of the
beginning, middle, and end. Less and it's too sketchy --
not enough thinking has gone into it. Just too vague. More
and you're starting to lock yourself in, putting yourself in
a straitjacket. You should indicate but brush over the
middle and the end.

Now, we still will do a step outline -- not including every
single scene, but the steps.

NEWMAN: A "step" meaning a significant incident or event
... you wouldn't include the little quarter- or half-page
mini-scenes or sub-scenes that act as a transition between
scenes, or as a tag to one scene or more usually an
introduction to another.

HUNTER: Right. Those are important for pace and flow and
variety, but we don't list them with the steps, or if we do,
we include them as part of the step before or after. There
should be between 30 and 45 steps. Less, and it will be too
short for a feature. More and it'll be too long.

NEWMAN: Too long, or else -- to keep it to 120 pages --
you'd have to rush pell-mell through every event ... nothing
would be developed; it would be too choppy. No time for
moments or details or character, just a scramble to get
those events in and on to the next.

HUNTER: Yes, that's right. So 30 to 45 steps. And again,
don't use the outline as a straitjacket. If you use it
right, it *will* help you through the middle! As Steven
Spielberg says, "We all get in trouble in the second act."

NEWMAN: If you're having trouble with the middle, do you
think it's okay to abandon the step outline and just write
... over-write, really, in an exploratory way ... to create
what Alvin Sargent calls "The Goop" from which you might
then discover your story, as well as some good scenes or
nuggets?

HUNTER: Sure. As writers, we always have the eraser at the
end of the pencil. Or the delete key. Write now, and find
what's good. Say "I'm going to go this way for a while.
It may be terrible, but it also may lead to something
wonderful." And then select and rewrite that so it's up
to snuff.

You should always have room in the development of your
script to be ... well, to be wonderful ... which means you
have to be open to that subconscious of yours which is
happening while you're writing the script. That's why, once
a writer starts the first draft, I urge them to write
speedily -- five to ten pages a day -- in order to use your
subconscious.

Keep your conscious mind at bay until after the first draft
so the subconscious can come to the fore. Then unleash your
conscious mind for the second draft and so on, and make it
good.

NEWMAN: This brings to mind something you said once to me
in a phone conversation. Let's see if I remember it
correctly: you recommend that writers, once they start their
writing day, never go back and revise pages any further back
than the last day's work.

I have to say, that made good sense to me at the time, and
I've passed the advice along to others, too, especially
those who say they feel confused as to how much revising and
polishing to do while in the midst of the first draft. I've
seen that this really is of concern to many non-pro writers.
Some are actively looking for a better approach. Others
report that they have found themselves bogged down in
screenplay after screenplay ... and it's partly because they
keep going several days back with their revising --
sometimes all the way to the beginning! And thus they lose
momentum, even focus. And the energy and time needed to
move forward. And by being bogged down in details of
particular events, they probably lose track of the big
picture, too.

So I always tell them what you told me. When writing your
first draft, only revise the pages from earlier that day or
the day before -- then move on.

HUNTER: Your recollection is exactly correct.

NEWMAN: However, revising or polishing the pages from the
previous day, as long as we restrict ourselves to that --
that has some value. They won't seem so depressingly rough
later on, and also ...

HUNTER: It's warmup. It gets you primed to write today's
original pages.

NEWMAN: But to go back further than one day ... to keep on
re-writing past pages rather than moving forward?

HUNTER: That's the surest path to madness and death in my
mind.

NEWMAN: Okay!


============================================================

"THE PICTURES WE ALL MOST ENJOY ARE BOTH CHARACTER *AND*
PLOT ORIENTED ... A CRACKERJACK OF A STORY WILL HAVE BOTH.
WE ARE, PRIMARILY, STORYTELLERS, BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE
WONDERFUL CHARACTERS ... BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE AUDIENCE
CARES ABOUT ..."

============================================================


NEWMAN: What's the weakest thing you tend to see in student
scripts?

HUNTER: The second act. If the second act is not good,
that means the structure is not good.

I think the most important thing you should have is a
wonderful idea. Ask yourself, "Is the script worth doing?"
Be sure it's an idea worth doing and one that you *can* do.
And one that you think the audience really wants to get
with.

Then after that, the second most important part of the
process is the development of the story and the structure.
Then comes the execution of the script, which is important
but in comparison is less important, although certainly more
time consuming.

But no matter how well-written, the script isn't going to be
wonderful if the story and structure aren't good. And the
story and structure are worth nothing if the idea isn't
wonderful. You can fix the script. You can't really fix
the idea.

NEWMAN: I was fascinated by your concept that the end of
Act 1 occurs on about page 17. All other books and
instructors say it's between pages 20 and 35 -- and there
*is* a big event, a turning point, in most movies right in
that area.

HUNTER: There is, but it's a one-quarter turn. We're
already into Act 2. I came to this flexible Page 17 when
developing my class. I had hundreds of scripts in my
garage, and I went through them. In about 150 of them, and
in many movies I've seen since, it's actually on Page 17. I
think it's tied to a biological rhythm. And in many others
it fell very close to that; it's flexible.

It often involves a significant decision which sets or
changes the course. If the audience has to wait until page
25 or 30 to find out what the movie's about, they'll think
"Gosh, maybe I got ripped off." They'll grow restless.

NEWMAN: Even resentful.

HUNTER: Yes. They want to get an idea much earlier about
what the hero wants and what the movie's about. And some of
that comes as early as the first scene, or should.

The body floating in the pool of a movie star's mansion in
SUNSET BOULEVARD. The death of Kane and the "Rosebud"
remark in the first scene of CITIZEN KANE. The drifting
feather and a sense of Forrest's character right off in
FORREST GUMP.

NEWMAN: You maintain that the basic idea, the basic story,
and sometimes the hero's goal becomes quite clear by page
17, with whatever decision or event which happens there.

HUNTER: Yes. So then by about page 17, the audience says,
"Ah. This is what the movie's about," and they can settle
back and enjoy the complications. Which is the Act 2.

Then there's the quarter turn around page 25 or 30.

NEWMAN: Which is what others have called the end of Act 1.

HUNTER: Well, I think that's at the Page 17 area; I think
that one is more important. The event at the one-quarter
mark is important, but not as much so. It's a bend, a
quarter turn. I feel we're already into Act 2 at that
point.

NEWMAN: Well, whichever marks the official end of Act 1 --
which is basically academic and up to the writer --
certainly I think you've identified a plot point that's been
overlooked up until now.

HUNTER: Start watching movies and reading scripts with that
in mind. You'll see it's there.


============================================================

"I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU SHOULD HAVE IS A
WONDERFUL IDEA. ... THE STORY AND STRUCTURE ARE WORTH
NOTHING IF THE IDEA ISN'T WONDERFUL."

============================================================


NEWMAN: So we've passed this Clarifying Event around page
17, and the "bend" around pages 25-30. We've entered Act 2,
we're pursuing the goal, we're encountering conflict. Now
what?

HUNTER: Then you work toward the Midpoint or Center Point.

NEWMAN: And what happens there?

HUNTER: That's when the hero decides he's going to stop
being reactive and will now be an active hero, or is forced
into being one. It's where Forrest Gump resolves to carry
out Bubba's plans as promised, even after his good friend's
death. It's when the hero decides or is forced to energize
himself into action. When, in CITIZEN KANE, he says, to
paraphrase, "Screw it, I'm going to go out and become
president of the country." It's when Butch and Sundance
decide to go to Bolivia.

NEWMAN: And, in your analysis, Act 3 begins where?

HUNTER: The ending is quite flexible. It could be the last
quarter of the script, or maybe just a dozen pages. It
could start on page 85 or page 105, wherever we take a turn
and we start the beginning of the end.

In FORREST GUMP it's where he finds out Jenny lives just
down the road and he takes off to go there.

But the Page 17 is something I feel very strongly about.

And the Midpoint, too. Most pictures that don't have a key
event around the page 17 area and also a strong Midpoint ...
are not good pictures!

The other designations are guidelines; to be too rigid is to
don a straitjacket.


============================================================

"MOST PICTURES THAT DON'T HAVE A KEY EVENT AROUND THE PAGE
17 AREA AND ALSO A STRONG MIDPOINT ... ARE NOT GOOD
PICTURES!"

============================================================


NEWMAN: Let's say your script is based on a good idea, and
the script is well-written, but it's too long -- 130 pages.
Not acceptable to most of Hollywood. And maybe inherently
too long. How do you approach cutting? Besides just
general editing?

HUNTER: Go back to your outline. Have you added steps to
your 30-45? Or just over-developed them? Can some be
combined or even cut? Also go back and examine your central
idea, what your movie's really about. Then start to cut
away that which doesn't relate to your spine.

One thing you have to figure out early on is what the hell
the movie's about -- what the spine is. Not necessarily
what the story's about, but what the movie's *really* about.
About time passing Butch and Sundance by. That by putting
on a dress, this guy in TOOTSIE becomes a better man. About
a guy who's living his life for everyone else in DOG DAY
AFTERNOON. That's the spine of your movie, what it's really
about. Figure out "What am I really, really trying to say?"

NEWMAN: What about the old saw, "Write about what you
know?"

HUNTER: I encourage people to write, number one: something
they know about, and two: something they care about.
Whether it's through your own experience or through
research, you really must know your subject. And you have
to care about it. Something you can get passionate about.

NEWMAN: Almost as hard as learning how to write a good
screenplay is finding an agent. Do you feel, once you've
been told by others that your writing is really good (and
you feel so, too) that a writer should start learning about
the business aspect?

HUNTER: Yes. But while scouting for representation, while
waiting to hear about a script, keep on writing. That's
most important. Don't stop. Don't ever stop writing.

A writer has to have two sides. A writer must be writing,
and a writer must also be selling. Or you will never become
a professional writer. Even the top professional writers
are always working the room, they're still selling.

NEWMAN: Any closing comment to screenwriters aspiring to
professional status?

HUNTER: Writers write. It's our UCLA motto. Writers
write. Not do bullshit exercises. Throw yourself into the
deep end of the pool.

And don't try to be as good as the best out there -- yet.
Try to be as good as *you* can be at this point, and keep
writing and studying so you can keep getting better.

Read the books, study the movies, take some courses to help
you learn the craft -- that's helpful and part of it. But
then you must do some "seat writing" -- seat of pants to
seat of chair. If you want to be writers, you must get out
the pages.

And the learning curve is incredible -- you'll see a
tremendous difference from scripts one and two to scripts
four and five. By all means take the newsletters, join the
support groups and a writing group. But above all, write.
Writers write.

# # #

Copyright Jeff Newman & Lew Hunter 1995


POST INTERVIEW NOTES

As I mentioned in the interview, I think Lew's book is
valuable if nothing else than for Chapter 8: "The
Rewrite(s)." We didn't discuss it in the interview, because
he covers it so thoroughly in the book. I simply didn't
have any questions on the ideas and techniques in that
chapter. Merely admiration for it. He provides a
systematic approach that is the best I've read on this topic
in any book on screenwriting.

Another noteworthy chapter, and for many, one that may prove
extremely helpful, is Chapter 4: in particular the sections
in it dealing with step outlines. He has a different -- and
I think superior -- take on outlines.

As mentioned in the interview, he calls for 30-45 steps for
an average-length movie, depending on the genre. And he
advocates a true *step* outline, rather than a scene-by-
scene outline. For the details, read that chapter.

I also found his thinking on the flexible "Page 17" event to
be significant and thought-provoking. I don't personally
agree it's usually the End of Act 1, although in some cases,
such as "Wizard of Oz" -- the tornado whisking her away, and
her landing in Oz -- it could certainly be seen as such.

Sparked by his insight on that, and the brief discussion of
the flexible "Page 17" event in the book (which he expanded
upon in the above interview), I studied the issue myself and
gave it much thought, writing an article on it for "Drama-
Logue" back in 1996. I then discussed the issue with Linda
Seger and Dona Cooper, and their comments on that (and other
matters) will be in upcoming interviews.

(Note: I'll be including a revised version of that Drama-
Logue article in an up-coming e-mail issue. It *won't* be
available to non-members on the online site, only to members
of this group -- which, if you're reading this in e-mail
form, you already are. In fact, neither will the Linda Seger
or Dona Cooper interviews be available to non-members.

(So if you are reading this online, and wish to get those
interviews and the article I just mentioned -- by e-mail, or
online but only if a member of this Yahoo Group -- then you
must join this Yahoo Group -- StoryNotesNewsletter. But
it's totally free; no charge. Do so by clicking "Join" near
the top-right section of the online page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StoryNotesNewsletter )

WHAT'S NEW WITH LEW?

Getting back to Lew (and what he's been up to) ...

Since retiring from UCLA, he's been traveling, giving
seminars, writing a novel, and hosting 2-week writing
colonies in a beautiful section of Nebraska. You can read
about that and more at

http://lewhunter.com

AND:

Something to really look forward to ...

HIS NEW SCREENWRITING BOOK

Lew's new book will hit the shelves next year. Its colorful
title: "Naked Screenwriting: Interviews with 20 Academy
Award-Winning Directors and Writers."

The book features conversations with 20 Academy Award-winning
screenwriters and writer-directors who "bare their
art, soul, craft and secrets."

It's scheduled for summer or fall of 2004. I look forward
to it.

THAT'S IT!

Coming soon: interviews with Linda Seger and Dona Cooper.
An article on "High Concept." And an interview with a
writer who sold six high-concept projects without writing a
screenplay for them -- just based on the idea. He did this
without an agent, nor was he a member of the Writers Guild.

Although having then also sold a high-concept screenplay, he
is now a member.

If you see the "Pirates of the Caribbean" issue of "Creative
Screenwriting," you might want to check out my column (on
pages 44-45).

# # #